the small shiver of disgust every time i hear the word 'content'

@lain but lain, i am a content creator;
you can't do this to me

I'm content to stfu
@lain

...

content creator

@neet the famous content creators of history (mozart, bach, shakespeare)

it makes me think of them as broccoli haired instagram people

@neet dom dom dom yes yes

@lain Still have no idea what Evan of SWF meant by "creator content" lacking on fedi.

@phnt i think they really just mean "we want egirls on here with a million followers" and i guess, yeah ok, but why? as bao said, the fediverse successfully kept normie npcs away by having two @s instead of one.

i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?

@lain @phnt It is the pity for the normie, and the fedi user burden to civilize the barbarian normie population although this has proven difficult (skill issue)

@lain me: i am content with life
lain: I HATE YOU AND I HOPE YOU DIE

@lain @phnt i wish it was more mainstream but I'd rather have people in here that wanna be here organically (which is not what really happened but those that did like this place stood around)

@phnt @lain it being considered normie or not, misskey.io literally has photographers organizing exhibitions of their work..

@lain @phnt

artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.

@sun @phnt i think that's a sort of adversarial framing already, tons of people have millions of real fans and real communities that care about them. why would they switch to a network that's hostile to them? and if you tell people 'well the advantage of this vs twitter is that nobody you care about is here, but you can run your own server with zero users', that's a hard sell as well.

coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.

i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids

@lain My opinion for years has been that trying to assimilate normies here en masse was always a bad idea since the cultures and ideas how things should work are inherently incompatible. I see Mastodon being this popular is being a net-negative. Not from their tendency to do weird protocol things, but culturally. Mastodon network™ effectively became second twitter. And Bluesky became second Mastodon. Both somehow worse. And this place never wanted to be a cultural copy of Twitter, at least from my view.

Instead of Fedi being more "commercial" in terms of finding users, like it is now, it should be more "friends of friends inviting each other". Organic instead of artificial. One could say that is gatekeeping in order to prevent the "you have to include me in your community -> *kills said community by subversion with the likeminded* -> new community appears -> repeat" pipeline.

Now if "creator content" means bringing more creatives here, and building something like federated Newgrounds or Deviant Art, then I'm all for that. Fedi lacks creatives except in the Japanese parts. They either went away years ago, or needed to go somewhere for better attention.

@cell @lain Japanese fedi is incomparable with what we have here.

@lain Come home to Spanish where content means "contained" and it's a good way to remember that all the ragebait videos are "contained"

@lain @phnt they have real fans but the platform is actually a star maker system whether or not you deserved that audience. it works the other way too, if you use youtube and you rack up a million subscribers but they don't like you, they'll just suppress your trending and won't show your video popping up even to your subscribers. my point is its all fucking fake. its not fake here but its a hard sell for creators that are benefiting from the fakeness which is every creator you've heard of

@lain @phnt @sun

> i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style

M*stodon: "CW: food", "Thread 1/700", "Yikes, buddy"

Pleroma: "Cofe", (Naked anime girls), (Racial slurs)

Misskey: (Incomprehensible emoji spam), (Clothed anime girls)

@lain @phnt trending etc could be done in a transparent and ethical way here and that would actually be good for small creators but every time someone tries adding search or trends to this place communists harass them off the network

@sun @phnt @lain #kawen

@sun @phnt yeah, that's an issue too.

@sun @phnt @lain it needs to originate from here so we can in turn bully them off

@phnt @lain People trying to orchestrate the normie mass migration into fedi can only end badly for the native population of weirdos. Let x (formerly tw*tter) and bl*esky keep the fuckers.

@sun @lain @phnt mean you could make the most basic bitch videos like cooking Mac n cheese and make it some where on YouTube. Or have ai make fake war stories of the time you made Mac n cheese But I rather have fire ants eat my corpse if I did that.

@sun @lain @phnt Solution: Implement it anyway and offer this for pleroma only and specific for the instance. When the communists are gone, do it network wide.

@maxmustermann @lain @phnt maybe we can build it into pleroma and egregoros only

@sun @lain @phnt That's my idea. I think I could get into programming again just for creating it.

@sun @phnt @maxmustermann egregoros has a 'for you' timeline that tries to do some algorithmic discovery, but i haven't used it enough to see if it really works well

@VD15 @lain @sun
fedi-mastodon-threading.png

@lain @phnt @sun Solution:
> I also have a exclusive Fediverse community. <3

@sun @lain Mastodon has trending hashtags, but I think they are network wide, for the "known network" of that instance. Hashtags could have been really great for trending and tagging posts, but Mastodon ruined it by making the search utterly unusable. Ideally there would also be "local trending tags" and "global trending tags", so an instance has more of a community feeling besides it just being a way to communicate with the whole network. The "instance" being a generic thing instead of a community building block hurts this network I think.

@mischievoustomato @lain he is discontented

@hakui @mischievoustomato might be the spring of my discontent

@lain @mischievoustomato boing

@phnt @lain @sun imagine if there was some sort of dewey.decimal.classification system we could let people index their posts with, so we didn't even need search to discover groups... of topics

@i @phnt @lain I agree #sex #fuck #pussy #introductions #tokyocameraclub #mutualaid #fediblock #itsalwayspleroma

@sun @i @phnt @lain you forgot #rape and #finance

@i @phnt @lain @sun I keep praying for Usenet 2: fediverse boogaloo

@pwm @i @phnt @sun fediverse is the continuation of usenet by other means

@lain @i @phnt @sun Really it's just a question of presentation, and perhaps organization.

@pwm @phnt @lain @sun like some sort of shadow cabal that decides what a group... is or isn't, a big bungle of h8te

@i @phnt @lain @sun I just meant if you shoved literally one `alt.misc.cumputer.shitpost` tag in there, and your software just respects it or not. Conversations still stick together as normal, but you get sortable topics on your compatible client's end.

@pwm @i @phnt @lain there's proposals for topics already but they're too complicated

@i @lain @sun I fundamentally disagree with how groups currently work and it's probably a good idea barely anybody knows that Pleroma has them. They are a prime target for uncontrollable spam. Kinda like relays, but the effects can get delivered directly to a user's sometimes even home timelines.

If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.

@phnt @i @sun this tbh

@phnt @lain @sun >OrderedCollection

good thing that even the user outbox being open is a srs security issue and no one's allowed to take a good peek at as:Public posts without authorization

@i @lain @sun Because the posts aren't from the Actor, it isn't their Objects, then why should have an Actor have Objects of someone else in their outbox. AP is extensible to stupid levels, why abuse an endpoint with data it shouldn't have just for the sake of reusing it.

@i @lain @sun Here's even a use case for the outbox: The Group Actors outbox has Add/Remove to it's own OrderedCollection to indicate moderation decisions for that Group.

Because if something should be removed and the instances of the admin making that decision and the receivers aren't in a follow relationship, how else would you federate removal of posts from the Collection without re-fetching it.

@phnt @lain @sun all i'm saying is that a shared /outbox is better, also fuck the concept of a moderated per server invite only group, it's never going to happen and authorized fetch is a thousand years of needless suffering

@i @lain @sun Who said invite only? I agree, a requires_approval true/false field would also work and would need to be exclusive with the manual/automatic approval arrays in the JSON. Want a public group open to anyone, fine, but you can at least still moderate it unlike an auto-repeater.

@lain @phnt
it would be interesting to have people that are not that online. Like turkish-german steel industry Gen X ers who currently post once a year on Facebook. Imagine the lore they could bring to the table.

As far as the already terminally online people go we can be really happy how Bluesky and X the everything App act as containment sites, tho sadly not all breaches can be completely avoided

@phnt @lain @sun all that bullshit every server needs to reimplement vs a single optional field that might as well replace subject

@i @phnt @sun who cares by now? code is cheap. still nobody knows what a group is.

@EmoIsDeadAndSoAmI @phnt i don't even want to girlboss gatekeep, if someone wants to come and make their home here, that's alright. but there's supposedly a million active threads users federating with us, i've never seen them, but if i actively search, i can find one or two posts. the social aspects discriminates stronger than any fediblock could.

@phnt @sun and getting @lain or gargron to push a release with that code is still very expensive, there's not enough 0days left

@i @lain @sun Who cares what Mastodon does/doesn't want to do. They are not the sole arbitrator of the whole protocol and network. With that thinking we still wouldn't have emoji reactions, and only the extremely demented way of doing quotes.

@i @phnt @lain why wouldn't you just do it in tags (not hashtags)

@sun @i @lain You cannot federate tags effectively. There's no mechanism to follow a tag and receive all the posts for that tag. You need some Actor for effective federation of tags.

That's really the only reason why groups would be different from (hash)tags, which you can also follow now btw (not implemented in FE though).

@phnt @i @lain I'm saying IF you just want a field then just use tags because they already exist for this pretty much

@sun @i @phnt i think this whole idea is kind of nonsense. people say they 'want groups' and then people invent some mechanism from first fedi principles. it must start at the other end, we first need to have a good idea of what feature we actually want to have (and 'groups' isn't a good idea, it's just a first inspiration) and then go back to he substrate and figure out how we can make it happen.

@phnt @i @lain @sun well back at Fosdem 2020 or whatever I suggested a specialized relay service for hashtags so you could have your server auto subscribe to whatever hashtags your users wanted to follow

@feld @i @phnt @sun that would still be pretty useful i think

@feld @phnt @lain @sun https://github.com/astro/buzzrelay already exists

@lain @i @phnt I am thinking just have a service not a protocol thing. a bod that subscribes to relays and indexes according to tags and then some mechanism to query and follow. don't like that server, host your own

@lain @i @phnt @sun basically every server would automatically cc this relay only if a post had a hashtag and was public

@i @phnt @feld @lain mastodon deliberately killed this iirc by disabling unauthenticated streaming of public timeline.

I was using it at the time to make a game for fediverse game jam, and in the middle those fucknuts turned it off in a release

@i @phnt @lain @sun no, the relay should only get public posts with hashtags tho not a firehose of every possible post from every public server

@feld @phnt @lain @sun see where it implements that

@i @phnt @lain @sun but it's not opt-in on the server side.

my server admin should have to opt-in to send hashtagged posts to this relay. you don't want open relays on servers, it's stupid

@feld @i @lain @sun I think that can work, but depending on a relay service for federation isn't great I think. It would have to be done with the FASP Mastodon thing or similar, which would centralize it.

Otherwise how would that relay know about posts that didn't mention it and how would instances know about that relay when nobody mentioned it from their view. Groups have a similar issue, but since they would be effectively a user, you can mention that user like any other. Posting # asdf is arbitrary.

I think what I have in mind is more network-wide meanwhile what you have in mind is similar to what relays currently are, multiple of relays an instance subscribes to.

@lain @phnt
threads started with a very limited implementation that they very slowly expanded, so it could be technical reasons as well. Threads federation is weird, I saw some threads stuff here on linksjugend despite our admin banning it (the usual threads url doesn't even seem to be doing the federation).
But with the cultural aspect as well, threads/insta is probably the most normie online network but still for large parts of Fedi the moderation meta that 95% of the world population would be fine with is literally hitler. I somehow get the "huge company scraping Fedi" problem but let's be real criminals, governments and NGOs already do that, never understood this "Fedi is the most private network" Mastodonger misinformation

@lain @phnt i believe it’s reasonable thar you want the network to be this huge if you’re involved in the standardization of the protocol

@mkljczk @phnt alright, but i don't really care too much about that. the standard was half-baked and only worked because mastodon and pleroma actually implemented something on top of it that others could work against.

@sun @phnt @feld @lain it's a shame nostr has https://github.com/hoytech/negentropy and people on fedi have to keep fighting to not disable the last vestiges of anything that's not a follow for follow hell

@mkljczk @lain I think it's also reasonable you should be forced to write your own implementation when you are involved in the standardization of the protocol, yet here we are. And none of that happened for AP afaik.

@lain @phnt
>i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?

That's not contradictory depending on your needs.
If a mass of normies just bring their negative digital hygiene/habits/culture from proprietary SaaSS and thus start changing the tech by peer pressure via grifters and spooks then you have nothing left but another proprietary platform.

It's similar to immigration, if you go in another country you learn the language, adapt yourself to the culture etc...

TL;DR I want normies to come here and have fun, not to tell us that we're having the wrong kind of fun and diddle us in response.

@lain a bucket of shit has content in it (TM)

@cjd @lain content: now with 200% More action

@lain @i @phnt @sun feels like everyone knows what it is (gnusoc groups) and everyone has ideas. I'd implement groups myself if I was fluent in elixir

@i @phnt @feld @lain @sun small reminder that misskey has "antenna" feature that basically monitors TWKN for mentions of words and relays matches to user's home tl

@hj @i @lain @sun It's not that easy anymore of you want cooperation from others. A FEP with a reference implementation would be ideal.

Otherwise it will end up like Pleroma Chats, nobody except Pleroma users know it exists.

@hj @i @phnt @sun well, you feel wrong

@phnt @i @lain @sun honk understand pleroma chats tho. I don't think we should cooperate, mastodon sure won't support jack shit (see: emoji reacts); lemmy/peertube/writeas have completely different use case, gotosocial/iceshrimp etc lack features that need to be implemented first; misskey just like mastodon, live in their own to timezone (don't support multiple emoji reacts per user) + language barrier.

We can spend years deliberating how to do the thing and waiting for others to cooperate or we could do some basic MVP, iterate on it and hope others will follow suit.

I don't think Pleroma Chats are bad, they are just underimplemented and lack groupchat support because no groups I guess.

@lain @i @phnt @sun most people who complain about groups are gnusoc veterans. They want gnusoc groups.

@hj @phnt @lain @sun maybe the E2E passkey chats could be backported to replace it, but also save your sanity for pleroma-fe, working on pleroma also is bad idea tbh

@hj @i @lain @sun I disagree.

Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.

This mentality is how we got to the point where there are 3 different ways to federate emoji reactions (Pleroma EmojiReact, Misskey's _misskey-emoji and someone else already did Like with an emoji field in JSON). Same issue with quotes, Akkoma/Pleroma quoteURI, Misskey _misskey-quote and now Mastodon's Quote Activity. How did we get here, nothing was ever documented and no specification how it works written so someone that lived in the Mastodon vacuum had no idea that Pleroma does EmojiReact.

That's the whole point of FEPs. It's a place for discussion about AP extensions for people that care. There's no process to get in besides write a spec and implement later. If we want to fix this messed protocol and do it properly, collaboratively, and not waster our time, this is the way to go. It doesn't have take years, because the window for a FEP to be "finalized" is a year after the last update or there abouts. It won't take literal years.

I don't think Pleroma Chats are dead, nor do I think they are bad, but there is no documentation on how they are supposed to work in AP, so very few implemented them. And how will you notify others that they exist if not by making a FEP and a somewhat high frequency issue tracker and announce them on activitypub.rocks.

cc @silverpill just because I've seen you talk about how good groups could work and I think my post above isn't completely stupid. And also sice FEPs got mentioned.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj I thought FEPs was servers implementing things and then telling you in a document how you did it, for example Smithereen has a mechanism for doing a myspace-style wall. It's not great and I'll be doing it in a different way completely if I ever do it for egregoros (but will be following a different better fep like public-appended collections)

@sun @i @lain @silverpill @hj They way I've seen them work is that you have a draft spec, a draft implementation and publish that as a draft. If someone is interested, they will comment on it and eventually a discussion will form about how it should be done. Basically W3C that isn't gatekeeping everyone and isn't actively hostile.

You can do it by implementing first, publishing later but then you are in the same place in my first two paragraphs. You failed to force it on everyone and someone doesn't like it? They will write their own FEP and now you are in the same mess like before. Competing over the same thing, because you didn't talk before.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I don't see much wrong with many ways of implementing emoji reacts, fedi is chaotic by nature. It's more effective to negotiate between willing parties on adhoc basis than make a standard to account for unwilling parties.

@sun @i @phnt @lain @silverpill FEPs are basically RFCs

@hj @i @phnt @lain @silverpill I'm almost blackpilled on cooperation after seeing the discussions on that activitypub forum tbh. I think moxie was right about federated protocols also tho, I mean look around

@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun And how will you discover willing parties that want to cooperate? Or how will they discover you? You don't have to account for unwilling parties since they weren't part of the writing process. It isn't a standard, it is called a proposal for a reason.

@sun @i @phnt @lain @silverpill all I'm saying - a half-assed usable solution with discussion around it is better than lots (or none) of discussion around "that'd be great" emptiness. We learned a lot from Pleroma chats implementation and can move on from there. I personally want to backport the UI to also work on normal threads.

@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun You don't see much wrong with that many ways of doing the same thing, because you don't have to deal with it. Do you think it's great to write 4 different ways to normalize one thing from multiple ways it has been done.

Look at Pleroma's Transmogrifier if you want to see the shear amount of stupidity on this network.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I'll discover them on fediverse. Every proposal needs something to back up, otherwise it's pure speculation. Implement groups - see results, propose it as standard - adjust as discussion goes or trash it in favour of another.

It's like "hypothetically if we had a public transport submarines what speed limit on them should be?" Well just make the damn submarine first then we can talk speed limits.

@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun Every few months there's some stupid new way I find someone has done the same thing on this network that it honestly angers me.

@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun

>Every proposal needs something to back up, otherwise it's pure speculation. Implement groups - see results, propose it as standard - adjust as discussion goes or trash it in favour of another.

You've just described FEPs.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj there was already a way to do federated badges before I implemented it for egregoros but the way it was done before was bad and I did it right. I want to believe this is different than usually someone does it bad and then someone else also just does it bad in a different way because they just plain don't care. I considered, then rejected the previous implementation (mine are 100% compatible with the w3c spec for openbadges while the previous one was hacked up partial compat with the old open badges spec and mutilated to make mastodon happy)

@sun @i @lain @silverpill @hj I mostly meant stuff like this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7821
this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7771
and this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7781

Only the last one is technically non-AP compliant.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I don't have to look. PleromaFE still has compatibility layer for MastoAPI and it still "supports" QvitterAPI. PleromaFE has to account for multitude of browsers including shits like Safari and Palemoon. PleromaFE supports Themes v1, v2 and v3 without major breakage. We have account for different versions of PleromaBE and different configurations, and now that I'm implementing Synchronised Settings I have to migrate settings from unsynchronised ones.

Also I voluntarily support IceShrimp and Akkoma backends for PleromaFE since akkomacels won't pull in frontend changes and iceshrimp just because I can. One day PleromaFE will support Mastodon backend, too.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun then why re aren't implementing groups, again?

@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun
1. I just thought how groups could work better literally in this thread
2. There are more pressing issue to resolve than reimplement Groups at least for me (like install docs being largely broken, still no substitute for OTP releases, releases CI still not rewritten, BBCode parser having a bug that annoys me greatly)
3. Not enough time and motivation at least from my part

@phnt @i @lain @hj @sun I think you're right about FEPs and cooperation. The optimal strategy is cooperate by default and defect only when the other side defects.

With quotes we were almost successful. The initial version of Mastodon's consent-respecting quotes was based on FEP-e232, but later they decided to introduce a new property.

Now there's FEP-521a (public keys), which they expressed interest in implementing.

Even with Mastodon, it's worth trying.

>Groups

I think Lemmy's implementation is not bad. There is also Conversation Containers from Hubzillaverse, and a possibility of convergence, see this thread https://lemmy.ml/post/43519233

@phnt @i @lain @sun

> Otherwise how would that relay know about posts that didn't mention it and how would instances know about that relay when nobody mentioned it from their view.

You're missing the point. Of course this is opt-in. The entire ecosystem must be opt-in. Lots of features in the fediverse will have to be opt-in, otherwise what do we have? The same problem as Bluesky with their giant firehose of shit nobody can handle. We'll never have a perfect shared global view/state of the fediverse and we wouldn't want that anyway.

So you build this into something like Pleroma's backend:

- configure one or more hashtag relays in Pleroma's backend, could have one configured by default operated by Pleroma's team or a trusted community. It's a new special thing, not related to existing relay functionality.

- when users follows hashtags, the backend subscribes to the hashtag endpoints on those relays automatically

- when users make posts with a hashtag, they're automatically CC'd to those hashtag relays so other instances subscribed can receive them

that's all it takes and it would work. And you kind of need it to function this way because people are going to want choices for moderation preferences, etc. e.g., Someone's going to post porn with the #linux hashtag and people are going to want that filtered, etc. Yes it's an additional moderation layer above the instance level, but that's fine.

This definitely means that if you're sending a hashtag to one of these specialized relays and nobody is subscribing to that hashtag it will not be seen by any other instance. But that's OK.

@silverpill @i @lain @hj @sun
Amazing...

20:59:41.304 [error] Could not decode user at fetch https://lemmy.ml/post/43519233, {:cross_domain_redirect, true}
20:59:41.430 [error] Object rejected while fetching https://lemmy.ml/post/43519233 {:fetch, {:error, {:cross_domain_redirect, true}}}

Thanks, I'll look into it later.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I agree that these are dark times with our CI fucking dying, but sometimes you just have sit down and implement shit despite all odds. I'm literally doing this with sync config rn. If you need monetary motivation we can adjust nlnet grant targets to implement groups.

@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun Look at my PR for that in the FE and see if I didn't miss something or you want something else. There's also the issue/PR template PR that you can look at and merge. I'm not merging anything into FE on my own.

@hj@shigusegubu.club @phnt@fluffytail.org @i@declin.eu @lain@lain.com @silverpill@mitra.social @sun@shitposter.world >PleromaFE has to account for multitude of browsers including shits like Safari and Palemoon
i dont think palemoon has worked with pleroma in months tho?

@lolitechengineer @lain @phnt @silverpill @i @sun no one reported it so I didn't fix it, I guess now that I'm aware of it I'll fix it.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun yeah I will.

@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj @sun

> Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.

oh yes the FEPs, that's much better. Where cooperation == "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway".

Before: Mastodon forces it on everyone through shear number of users

Now: Mastodon pretends to cooperate with the FEP process, and then essentially has veto power so they force it on everyone through shear number of users.

Like their Quote Posts. Do you think if Pleroma, Akkoma, and Honk showed up in the FEP process and said "this is terrible, you shouldn't do quote posts this way and you especially should not be trying to design features at the federation level that limit/restrict interactions to posts because it's an honor system and won't work anyway", that they'd have listened? Three votes from three stakeholders in the fediverse mean nothing when we don't have the userbase size of Mastodon.

At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.

@lain @phnt @sun
> why would they switch to a network that's hostile to them?

@feld @i @phnt @lain @silverpill @sun <activity type="manifest ">{{ destiny }}</activity>

@hj @i @feld @lain @sun
xml-parser.png

@feld@friedcheese.us @phnt@fluffytail.org @i@declin.eu @lain@lain.com @silverpill@mitra.social @hj@shigusegubu.club @sun@shitposter.world I don't like quote posts

@phnt @hj @feld @i @lain @sun Finally, a clanker starts talking sense.

@lain fr fam I just want the tea

@feld @phnt @hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun

> "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway"

This is in your head. You can just ignore Mastodon.

> At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.

Friendicazillahub is doing fine, last I heard. It's good to stay compatible but letting Mastodon shit on fedi hasn't done fedi any good: it just ensures that Mastodon continues to do whatever they want with no pushback.

@feld @i @lain @hj @sun It doesn't mater that Mastodon didn't take our solution, when we got others interested in it to implement it. There's Mitra, Lemmy, Hollo, NodeBB, Wafrn and many more you can cooperate with, fediverse is not just Mastodon. Friendica even has some ad-hoc groups I think that work slightly like GS and they could benefit from that if they get involved and make them interoperable with others based on some discussion and consensus.

You don't have to explicitly cooperate with Mastodon even in the case of groups or relayed tags, since if Mastodon users get a wind of this feature and they end up liking it, there's more chance that it will get at least implemented in something like Glitch-soc. Throwing the towel early on everyone doesn't help I think.

@p @i @phnt @feld @lain @silverpill @hj @sun Misskey is just as opinionated as Mastodon but no one complains about Misskey; or, well, if there's reason to complain about Misskey the American Misskey users tend to create a solution, then syuilo either adapts it or doesn't, but Misskey doesn't direct activitypub with their decisions; they only direct Misskey.

@vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun The only solution is to just hack as needed and rant in the comments.
burn.png

@p @i @phnt @feld @lain @silverpill @hj @sun

> // i am displeased
> variable named “sigh dr” right afterward

I know it’s sig-hdr, but it was still funny

@vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun

Edit ,s/sighdr/sigh_doctor/g

@vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun There's a lot of ranting in the request signer:
time.png

@vii @i @phnt @feld @p @lain @silverpill @hj other devs complain about misskey frequently, also he has often done things unilaterally, and complains about interoperating while not reaching out so things just languish. it is actually a problem.

@sun @i @vii @feld @p @lain @silverpill @hj Yeah, Misskey tends to do their own dumb ways and everyone else needs to normalize it. Perfect examples of that are `isCat`, the profile decorations and having no idea what "context" is for in ActivityPub. Syuilo usually does things in absolutely non-ActivityPub ways.

@phnt @lain I just don't see the creative energy here or the appreciation for it even when I used to post stuff like this.

I don't think it necessarily needs that either. This is social media. Not necessarily the place to post creative works.

@sim @lain There used to be much more creative energy here years ago. And there still is on the Japanese side like fedibird, but not here anymore.

This is a microblogging site, but Twitter and Bluesky also are and art is there a lot if you know where too look. The culture changed here I guess...

@sun @vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill Well, yeah, media.fse currently returns a 429 with the text "TELL SYUILO TO FIX HIS SHIT" and they way they did quote-posts is worse than any other proposed version but the current Pleroma one doesn't even put the link in the body so there's no graceful degradation.

@sun @i @phnt @feld @p @lain @silverpill @hj Fair, fair, I haven't been as in the loop. I still find it that we have a lot of huge personalities, from a network perspective, that are begrudgingly accepted in the form of edge case unit tests.

@p @i @vii @phnt @lain @silverpill @hj @sun

> but the current Pleroma one doesn't even put the link in the body so there's no graceful degradation.

it does with MRF.InlineQuotePolicy

@feld @i @vii @phnt @p @lain @silverpill @sun as things should be

@p @i @phnt @feld @lain @silverpill @hj @sun Oh I ran into this making a fedi env for my clanker. The fool kept trying to read the renote, but the renote had no content and it wasn’t looking at the raw json so it never saw the renote field it was apparently supposed to be looking for.

@feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun @vii "If you filter it so it's different, it'll be different." Sir, I feel like this is the opposite of graceful degradation.

@sun @vii @feld @hj @i @lain @p @phnt @silverpill remember how they decided to block all *romas because they sat around getting ddos'd by a message queue bug for six months instead of reaching out to the devs

@hakui @i @phnt @feld @p @lain @silverpill @hj @sun I did not hear about this. Ouch.

@vii @feld @hj @i @lain @p @phnt @silverpill @sun fortunately they were convinced to change it to "block all *romas below the version with the bugfix"

which unfortunately includes my instance but oh well (my version was too old to have that bug

@p @i @vii @phnt @lain @silverpill @hj @sun some of our MRFs aren't "filters" as much as "policies". The setting is available. It can be used. Should it be default? Maybe, but it's ugly as hell

@hakui @i @vii @feld @p @lain @hj @sun And blamed it on emojis

@feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun @vii

> Should it be default?

The default should maximize compatibility.

> Maybe, but it's ugly as hell

Subjective; the guts don't look ugly to some people (and, as evidenced by bopesox users' inability to realize who's tagged because that's hidden, some details are unavoidable ugliness).

But this should be something you do on the frontend, not the backend: you can hide it using CSS if the code is aware of it, and then code that isn't aware of it will see the URL instead of being randomly tagged and someone says "This is a great idea" and then you say "What is?" and they say "That thing you said!" and then if you are aware of how these things are structured, you might eventually put together that they have quoteposted. (Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the learning curve acting as a threshold and I also don't mind when Shit Gets Weird because it keeps fedi intriguing, but I think it's safe to say that your goals are mutually exclusive with those two things, like, I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think it's safe to say that most of the Pleroma devs are not trying to make fedi opaque and weird and are generally trying for the opposite.)

Like, the tag-lists being abridged can be altered in the frontend per-user, but if it were set by the originating server and the post body changed to "... +5 others" then that would be a presentation-level concern that was implemented on the backend and that you couldn't fix without rewriting messages on the backend, and that feels wrong. I don't think quote-posting is materially different: it's presentation. If it were metadata and you expected a sufficiently clever frontend to replace it inline, you could have commentary before or after or around the link(s).

@feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun @vii Like, I don't know why quote-posting isn't just "links to object URLs embedded in the post" and then there's some metadata and some FEs could display the little card and go to the post/thread on click; that seems like it would be easier. Then you could do some frontend gunk for people to do it the expected way (Twitter-style) and that leaves you more flexibility on how these things work. Implementation might be easier, like, the backend just annotates the /objects/ URLs with the appropriate metadata when it is turning posts into links, right, lookup-by-object-URL is fast enough.

@phnt @feld @hj @i @lain @p @sun @vii no the emojis were just a guess, it turned out to be a custom profile field

@p @i @vii @phnt @lain @silverpill @hj @sun I 100% agree and had the same idea but this shit already exists 💀💀💀

@lain @phnt Two @s gatekeeping the masutadon nettowaaku.

@feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun @vii Well, something else that is awful is going to happen; it'd be better to avoid the next terrible fate.