ah yes, thank you systemd. shit i need to find time to install void..

@lucy I didnt have a single issue with desktop linux since ditching the autistic distros like arch

@lucy did you have settings for tmp in your fstab or some shit? Whats the point of that even

@teto @lucy I didn't have a single issue with desktop linux since ditching the autistic distros like gentoo too, Slackware is great.

@teto idk i just installed arch :c

@takao @lucy sorry im not over the age of 40 either so never used slackware. But have you heard of our lord and savior popOS?

@lucy arch is for "bastler" not normal desktop users

@lucy @teto not gonna shut up about tumbleweed

@mia @lucy YOU DONT NEED THE NEWEST RELEASES OF SOFTWARE IF YOURE NOT A DEV

@teto @lucy don’t want mostly unpatched 5yo shit either (which is what you get with point releases)

@mia @lucy most software comes in flatpaks now. Every "normal" distro (minus ubuntu) uses them for a reason. And even then, I only ever needed "new" releases of drivers if anything and that was BEFORE steam changed gaming on linux forever. If steam is in your repos thats taken care of too. (But doesnt need to be cuz again, Steam has a flatpak as well)

@snacks @mia @lucy all you need is steam and flatpaks

@teto @lucy flatpak is a cope because distros are sticking to old versions of everything for no reason other than stupidity (since upstream never even supports old versions anymore).

frequently updated does not mean frequently broken if your packagers know what they’re doing (which evidently arch people do not), and stable does not mean free of problems.

@lucy

Oh yeah soystemd recently turned /tmp into a tmpfs and shit starts breaking, classic.

@lucy
@teto

Sounds like skill issue for not installing Artix, or better yet, Guix GNU+Linux-libre.

@mia @lucy how is it a cope when I literally use them for everything now without any issues lmao. Give me an actual example that would matter to "normal users"

@teto @lucy flatpak more often than not means “never updated” and so will either stop working or end up with unpatched vulnerabilities

it’s also absurd because it basically ships an OS for each app

@mia @lucy and I must add that popOS updates the kernel frequently even as a "stable" release distro. They update things that matter for the user without fucking up your system.

@teto
@lucy @takao

> But have you heard of our lord and savior popOS?

This nigga is a reddit subhuman.

@mia @lucy my flatpaks are updated constantly. My emulators update daily.

@jihadjimmy @lucy @takao no, arch linux is the reddit distro. And all my linux colleagues who use reddit used arch. Not even joking.

@teto @lucy then what’s the difference to simply running a distro that does that, instead of relying on each software vendor to constantly rebuild everything their package depends on and ship that as an update

@teto @mia @lucy @snacks total flatpak death

@jihadjimmy @lucy @takao I dont even need to argue anything here. Fact is I never have problems and I dont want to have any. And that since 2018.

@Paulajak @mia @lucy @snacks autist

@teto
@lucy @takao

Both are major soyware, reddit tier dogshit distributions. PoopOS is the second worst one only surpassed by Ubuntu.

@teto @mia @lucy @snacks yep

@mia @lucy flatpaks dont touch your system or make you babysit your packages. If you dont update them for 5 years you can still update them without fucking anything up. I swear arch user autism is too severe for me to ever find common ground. If you like babysitting your OS then enjoy. I already do that as a job so no thanks.

@jihadjimmy @lucy @takao this isnt a dick measuring contest. I can play my steam games on it and thats enough for me.

@lucy

> shit i need to find time to install void..

You don't want a distribution that hosts all their repos on Github.

@teto @lucy i’m running tumbleweed not arch. i can skip updates for 5 years if i want to and it won’t break; i’ve actually done that before. if i install something that needs a partial update it won’t break either (unlike arch). there’s not really any babysitting beyond what you get on any other distro.

@mia @lucy the only thing the normal user "misses out" on is new releases of gnome or KDE desktop software or some shit. But even then, most of that stuff has flatpaks too. So arch users are crying about their toolbars being outdated. Yet most of them still use x11 which never gets any updates lol.

@mia @lucy suse isnt really discussed in these autism contest threads often (my first time) but if that makes your steam games run without being a babysitting OS then it's better than arch. Either way, id prefer to keep the "risks" at a minimum because id rather not waste an afternoon debugging package problems anymore. I dont want to work after 17 oclock.

@mia @lucy maybe I should switch to suse so people cant come into threads anymore calling me a soyfag because popOS isnt niche enough or smth. Man I hate hipsters

@teto @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao I don't really care about the updates as much, it's more about pacman being pleasant, fast and having everything you might need in the AUR. I don't use reddit either.
All I'm saying is, me and my wife Yomi use Arch everyday and it just works.

@teto @lucy understandable and basically that’s the reason i run that distro. i don’t want to worry about either shit being too outdated or shit being broken by some update. i want to be able to update at my own schedule and be able to easily rollback in the event that it does break some niche thing i don’t feel like fixing before the maintainers do

@grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao I havent used my package manager in 2 years. Im on fedora right now and it just updates for me after a bootup like on windows.

@grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao when I install software I just use KDE discover and click "install". So easy!

@teto @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao
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@teto @lucy also i don’t want to read release notes or news for every update, and i don’t want a huge readjustment of everything when the big new point release rolls around eventually

@grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao no, I just dropped the pretentious autism and just use the skills I learned from that "phase" to make lots of money instead of wasting my energy on shit I already know

@teto @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao ok

@mia @lucy the AUR is honestly just a nightmare. I hope tumbleweed doesnt have any "user" managed stuff

@teto @lucy making things work is the maintainers’ job, and higher update frequency generally means lower per-update impact on user experience.

@grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao there was an arch redditor at my last work place and we were buddies except whenever I shitted on arch as a distro. That shit is a cult bro

@teto @mia @lucy never had any issues with it

@teto @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao honestly I don't think I even know any arch users personally, it's just never a topic

@grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao well I cant really avoid arch users when I literally work as a linux admin guy

@teto @lucy it does have user repos but these are really meant for personal stuff and for working on initial packages before submitting them to a proper maintenance project.

in general contribution to the main repo is strongly encouraged and handled much better than in the arch community

@mia @lucy ill give tumbleweed a try but if I ever have to do more than a cronjob that updates for me im yeeting it again most likely

@teto @lucy if you’re using a major DE it’ll probably have an updater widget

@mia @lucy well discover does but I forget about it and then fedora just does it for me most times

@mia @lucy maybe using suse is my destiny. I got this little guy at kubecon in Paris this year lol

@mia @lucy @teto As long as I have you here in the thread, what partition layout/fs do you use for tumbleweed? I accepted the installer defaults but didn't really like what snapper was doing after a while so I distro hopped again to check on how COSMIC was doing. But Tumbleweed + Liquorix was probably the smoothest experience I've ever had with a Linux overall, so I would be more than happy to go back.

@lucy @mia the makers of the opensuse website put it quite accurately. Minus gamers. They can use Leap now too. Either way avoiding the "major OS version upgrades" work is a plus if it doesnt result in other work like on arch.

@grips @teto @lucy @takao @jihadjimmy People don't often mention the wiki. Might not mean anything to some, but that shit has saved me (a linux noob) about a hundred times. It has been a very friendly beginner distro.

@riserise @grips @lucy @takao @jihadjimmy when I recommend linux to people now I say they should use it because it's easy. But I feel like most arch users dont even know what sort of person I mean with normal

@allison @lucy @teto my disk layout is kinda specialized on all of my machines…

anyway i think snapper behavior can be configured or at least disabled (never used it myself). i’m not using btrfs anywhere. most of my systems have something with encryption and LVM with XFS file systems

i never really needed rollback in practice but if you believe you might then the default setup is probably fine. another thing you can do is using tumbleweed-cli, which instead allows you to switch between snapshots of the main tumbleweed repository, but that seems like a worse approach.

@teto @lucy tbh i wouldn’t recommend leap to anyone, it simply doesn’t get the attention it needs because we don’t have enough people to maintain all those package versions

i guess if you’re just using it as a vehicle for flatpaks it might be okay though

i maintain ~2 dozen packages in tumbleweed and i see how many of them just stop building in the maintenance project repos even on the newest leap release because the dependencies are just too old and we’d have to patch the shit out of everything to keep things going. it’s just not a sustainable distro dev model anymore.

@teto @riserise @grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @takao One of my friends (woman so retarded) is a Linux beginner and her bf started her on Arch and she hasn't had any problems. She keeps showing off to me that she uses programs without a GUI lol

@mia @lucy flatpaks are a game changer and distros that ignore them are just going to become less relevant in my opinion

@J @grips @jihadjimmy @lucy @riserise @takao sorry Im too dumb for arch. I will become trans and become a woman now

@teto @lucy they’re an unfortunate workaround for a problem we wouldn’t have were it not for either the popularity of stable distro releases, the popularity of software with no ABI/API stability, or the popularity of closed-source software

i will defend the existence of distribution packages because they’re an additional layer of scrutiny on the software stack as a defense against supply chain attacks that have hit every single software ecosystem that relies on a single package source, and, with the right tooling, result in a more coherent system that can be tested as a whole unit (as is done on openQA) as opposed to just individual packages.

an often-repeated argument in favor of FLOSS is the “many eyes” approach to security and bug hunting, but the more we rely on systems like flatpak and npm/cargo/gopkg etc., the further this moves into the realm of wishful thinking rather than practice

@mia @lucy imo when I install spotify I shouldnt need software laying around on my system that works with it. It should be like with .exe files on windows. One "thing" that has everything it needs included. Also flatpak is not comparable to npm or whatever since it's desktop user focused and offers no developer cli tools at all. It's just for "normal software". If anything youd find a GUI for npm packages there lol. To me the linux package problem is solved when it stops being managed by 200 different distro maintainers and is just 1 "thing" like flatpak is. BTW steamOS uses flaptaks. Thats the actual decider here, what do big corpos put into their linux distro when they ship it WITH the hardware theyre actually selling to people. Flatpak is a way for steve to install spotify without having access to pacman. And valve made sure he can never get that access.

@mia @lucy as a sidenote: you can selfhost your own flatpak repo but Ive literally never seen or needed that.

@lucy @mia either way, I can use debian stable, suse, arch, whatever and completely ignore the package manager. I just need flatpaks. The distro doesnt matter anymore.

@teto @lucy i get your point on the user perspective. i just wanted to highlight a technical problem that also affects users because the way user convenience has been achieved here comes at a price

flatpak is comparable to npm and so on because the way it works exposes users to the same classes of vulnerabilities (such as supply chain attacks) while also making it impossible to tell what code is actually part of each package

you don’t ever want to bother users with security crap. but this approach is making it a lot harder to keep systems secure without inconveniencing users or introducing walled gardens.

@mia @lucy if we dont sacrifice anything then we get nowhere

@teto @lucy sure; what i’m saying is that i’d prefer flatpak to be an interim solution rather than permanently dealing with problems that could be avoided by rethinking the way we build systems

@mia @lucy I used my steam deck and steamOS as a main desktop for a while with a usb-c dock and it worked fine for me. It played my games, had spotify, and a browser. Most people dont really need much more.

@lucy @mia what im saying here is basically mac user logic but im playing devil's advocate obviously

@teto @lucy yeah. i get that.

users don’t want to care, and so we should find ways to enable that without so much duct tape

@mia @lucy something stripped down and "restrictive" like steamOS with a GUI store that only has flatpaks is honestly the best way so far to bring linux to "everyone". Kids are growing up with smartphones and app stores. Not really computers anymore.

@mia @lucy Ive heard someone say the only tech savvy generation are millenials because we had to deal with all the "crap" that was attached to basically all tech for a good while. And when I speak to guys in their teens or early 20s Id guess most of them wouldve just called computers in general nerdy and stupid in the early 2000s if they had been there instead. Im rambling now, good night

@teto @lucy which is why i’d prefer less disparity between distributions/systems, i.e. distros getting their shit together and moving on from the late-90s model of distro maintenance so that we’re not having software vendors ship isolated operating systems along with their thing

@jihadjimmy I've been using /tmp as a tmpfs (zram actually) for ages now and nothing has broken (I guess stuff that vomits all over the /tmp with huge files will break (but that can be easily be fixed by removing such garbage software)), as it works as a filesystem just fine.

Of course systemd would find a way to break things anyway.