ok real shit catholic-core or orthodox-core

@luce-anon why we gotta pit two bad bitches against each other like this

@luce-anon i like catholic art better even though orthodox art has a certain charm that i like, i mostly like orthodox theology better, orthodox priests have cooler outfits, i like catholic prayers better for the most part, orthodox have cooler liturgical languages, papal infallibility is retarded

@luce-anon also immaculate conception kinda sucks. like it's a pretty & poetic idea but mary is cooler if she's like us. BUT catholics hold that jesus was tempted in the desert and orthodox don't which is both closer to scripture and makes jesus cooler so

@luce-anon all christians who believe in original sin are wrong

@tamamizu @luce-anon isn’t that the whole point of the religion?

@arcana @luce-anon @tamamizu no

@arcana @luce-anon no

@arcana @luce-anon it synergizes well with christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world, and christians have developed interesting cosmology about it (for example, the idea that the wood of the cross was made from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and also the same wood that abraham bound isaac to). it's an extremely popular and orthodox christian doctrine, but it isn't inherent to the religion. it's kinda maybe alluded to in paul (who i also don't think is an absolute authority) but it's not present in the gospels at all and doesn't become a serious part of christianity until augustine i'm pretty sure

@sun @luce-anon @tamamizu sorry but saying it isn’t just feels like trying to edit out unpleasant parts people don’t like. Humanity is a fallen species because of the sin in Eden but through the incarnation of the Christian god in a human form, they were offered a chance of salvation? That’s the central aspect is it not?

@arcana @luce-anon @sun it's a part of most christian dogma, but i don't think that makes it inherent to christianity, no. also christianity is very old and is the possession of billions of people across time, so it's bound to be internally inconsistent.

@arcana @luce-anon @sun a person has to cherry pick in a world where absolute truth cannot be reached discursively

@tamamizu @luce-anon @arcana everyone is in sin but original sin says you inherited sin from the sins of Adam

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun yes but that’s the whole point of the point isn’t it? Direct line to god and angels to continue the message and provide guidance. Like the dreams the late Pope Benedict was plagued by.

Also isn’t the whole point that you can’t know the truth and so you basically have to hope and have faith in your god to save you? I don’t really agree that a religion can be the possession of billions of people, that just seems to make it meaningless at that point. The whole point of priests and religious texts is to guide the masses to the truth.

@tamamizu @arcana @luce-anon humans are fallen and seduced by sin but not everyone believes they are born with sin.

@sun @luce-anon @tamamizu yes, as a human. Baptism does clean the slate somewhat though, which is why unbaptised infants go to hell

@sun @luce-anon @tamamizu but doesn’t that directly contradict the Bible: https://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Psalms 51:5&version=nrsv

@arcana @luce-anon @tamamizu the bible contradicts itself, psalms are basically works of art. there is theological evidence for calvinist predestination, god made you evil and decided before you were born if you are going to be saved or not.

uuuuhhh guys i meant just based on their aesthetic appeal 😅

@arcana @luce-anon @sun
idk i'm not really concerned with capital t truth anymore. i'm too young and inexperienced and i have yet to master even basic honesty. as far as i'm concerned rn, the search for meaning is futile and all meaning is ultimately a matter of faith

@arcana @luce-anon @tamamizu I don't mean to start a fight I just am saying that a lot of christians don't strictly believe in original sin. it gets into theological weeds what this implies.

@luce-anon i prefer orthodox iconography, but my liturgical preference is caㅤtholic, and my theological preference is not within that binary

@sun @luce-anon @tamamizu well I mean I’m no Calvinist but surely if it’s an all knowing and all powerful god, it has already determined whether you will be saved or not. Is it not god’s will if a baby succumbs before baptism?

@arcana @luce-anon @tamamizu free will and omniscience has been argued over for centuries

@sun @luce-anon @tamamizu oh sure, and I don’t consider myself a Christian so I don’t actually follow a path with it, but it does seem to me like original sin is a core concept of that. While groups are within their rights to not believe in original sin, it just feels like a case of where do you draw the line?

It basically just becomes applying the text to your own preferred ideas at that point, which I get why people want to do it, but it feels a bit like doing a “hey guys, so the Mexica faith is totally legit but let’s just not do the mass human sacrifice part, because uh, they didn’t mean that”

@sun @luce-anon @tamamizu I feel like part of that is the issue with Abrahamic religions, they seem extremely confused to me.

@arcana @luce-anon @sun idk i think it would be legit af to practice mexica religion without human sacrifice

@arcana @luce-anon @tamamizu I don't want to go too deep into it but some people think that in theory you could live a sin-free existence and free will enables you to sin and so it is SOLELY YOUR FAULT you sinned.

@arcana @luce-anon @tamamizu This separates God and others from all responsibility for the consequences of your sin.

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun well yeah, I totally get why people would want to, but at the same time it very often feels like so many people do these things because the alternative is mean. I get it from a human perspective but to a god, humans are basically just livestock, so it naturally follows that any true religion worshipping an entity above humans would not directly follow such pleasantries.

@arcana @luce-anon @sun that is an extremely pessimistic view of gods

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun it is a realistic view of gods. Sure, you may align with them sometimes, they may favor you sometimes, but never forget what that relationship is and the difference in forms.

I think a lot the view people have is honestly one of denial. They don’t want to feel like something out there can and would harm them. Atheists believe that humans are basically the peak species and there are no terrors in the dark. The religious will paint smiles on their divine and imagine them with great benevolence, but to me this is simply unrealistic.

A farmer will often love their cows, sheep, etc. they will nurture them, heal them, and love them. One day however it is time to take them to the abattoir and despite that love and nurturing, the deed is done.

Humans are livestock to those entities above them in power and wisdom. I understand why people maintain their faith in goodness, but a god sees no wrong when it’s time to send a human to the abattoir.

@arcana @luce-anon @sun so much about your worldview makes more sense to me now lol. i don't agree, obviously, since i don't think gods have the kind of existence where humans being their livestock even makes sense, but even if you were right idk what i would do about it. i'll die either way, and my life is much richer with the gods than without them

@arcana @luce-anon @sun also 'realism' usually is a mask for pessimism. that's not really related to what you actually had to say, but it's my experience of those who use it

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun I consider myself very optimistic actually, I have no reason for this to make me pessimistic

@arcana @luce-anon @sun but your view of gods is not optimistic

@luce-anon Orthodox art is far more interesting.

@arcana @luce-anon @sun it could really only be an optimistic view of the gods if you thought man had any means of recourse at all against them, which maybe you do, and really optimism would mean that you thought man's odds of defeating their masters was good

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun well sure, but ultimately part of it is that you can’t do much about it failing some great trick against the odds to level the playing field even slightly which is theoretical at best.

Ultimately the universe and anything above it is not equal. Humans are either extremely bad at imagining or extremely reluctant to imagine entities that are above them. I would argue there is a far smaller distance between humans and chickens than between humans and the greatest gods. For humans as a species have no qualms with putting to death billions of chickens, even on their first day, so it does not logically follow that entities above humans would not do likewise, only their needs and desires far higher in a scale.

A chicken does not know why it is being put in a transporter, nor where it is going. Humans are the same with their fate in the hands of gods.

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun I would say it’s neither optimistic nor pessimistic. It does not make me pessimistic about prey animals that a predator hunts them. It is merely the way of the world.

I may have my preferences, and humans with their own power imbalance can interfere in those relationships. A human hunter can kill a predator animal from a long distance. It cannot comprehend this. It chases the hare but is killed from an unfathomable distance before it can succeed.

There is neither pessimism or optimism in this, it is simply the way of the universe. A powerful entity will always have the ability to be above those beneath them. The only reason that the predator can carry out it’s own life is due to humans either no caring to exterminate it, or having motives not to do so for ultimately their own purposes.

@arcana @sun @luce-anon @tamamizu probably offtopic, but doesn't something in the abrahamic religions say that everything that happens is because of god's will? i cant quite find that to be a good thing considering what me and my mom have gone thru in our own loves

@arcana @luce-anon @sun i guess. it really only sounds not pessimistic when you talk about it detached like it doesn't involve you though idk

@mischievoustomato @luce-anon @tamamizu @sun well it does yes, but ultimately, why would a god care about individuals unless it found them special and useful to its own direct cause and interests?

It’s like you’ve said yourself, you don’t care about people you don’t know, and have no care for those who die in wars across the world and such. That’s human to human, so imagine how much more disconnected it is when there’s a power imbalance.

@arcana @sun @luce-anon @tamamizu yeah i get that and does make sense to me that gods would behave that way! i was just pointing out the stuff about the abrahamic god because i see people saying its a god of love and whatnot

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun Well yes, I suppose so, and I guess in a sense that’s how it feels to me, which is why I maintain it’s not pessimistic, for me at least. This to me feels the same as watching a nature documentary. Just part of the universe and a grand cosmic hierarchy working as intended.

@mischievoustomato @luce-anon @tamamizu @sun well it’s like Muslims maintaining god is good, and wills all things. Clearly Gaza isn’t on his agenda. That or he’s on the other side.

@arcana @luce-anon @sun do you think you live apart from this hierarchy? or are you just content to be livestock/better to be self-aware livestock than not?

@luce-anon This is entirely your fault.

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun I don’t really want to answer that

@arcana @luce-anon @sun that's fair. then i'll simply say, from my point of view, that you are also livestock by your own logic, and it would be a sign of sickness for a prey animal to act detached from its own predation, which is why i can't agree with you and why it's hard for me to understand

@tamamizu @luce-anon @sun my point of view is different but it’s clear we differ on this matter

@luce-anon you started a fuckin argument thread lmao

@mischievoustomato GUYS I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS JUST ASKING WHICH ONE LOOKED COOLER 😭😭😭

@luce-anon lmao yeah, but this is fedi