@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett

fish and octopus and generally anything living in the ocean, would eat you first if it could.

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett plants scream out in pain, why would you harm them?

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-record-stressed-out-plants-emitting-ultrasonic-squeals-180973716/

@feld@friedcheese.us @ambiguous_yelp@social.coop @barrett@shitposter.world as an animal, your entire existence is predicated on the consumption and exploitation of other living beings and there is nothing you can do about it

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett yeah that's true, I'd still say octopus though since they kill things for fun like we do

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett I can only meet you partway, but I consider it more and more the older I get

@sun @ambiguous_yelp @barrett @feld Orcas launch seals in the air with their tails before eating them, and scientists still don't know if it's to wear them out or just them playing with their food. They also had a "fad" where they wore salmon corpses like hats

@sun @barrett @ambiguous_yelp while I agree that humans consume too much meat and the modern factory farming practices that raise our livestocks are inhumane, it is an absolutely ridiculous idea that you can erase centuries of human culture around food and expect people to change their world views on this.

It's also a privilege for people to be able to live on a vegan diet. In many parts of the world the ingredients are not available at all or it is prohibitively expensive to only consume it. There are other arguments like convenience which is highly valued when you live in a society that works you to death.

We could probably start by lifting the subsidies that make animal byproducts so cheap so we can better achieve a price parity between animal and plant based diets, but entire production an distribution networks need to be revamped as well.

This also doesn't consider that we have entire species that would go extinct if we weren't raising them to eat them. Like the turkeys we farm. You know what happens when the President pardons the turkey for Thanksgiving? Uhhh well it goes to a farm and keeps growing and growing and then dies because it can't walk anymore. Not so different from our broiler chickens which cannot survive because we bred them selectively for food. So what do we do about that? Is it more horrific to completely eliminate them from the planet?

We can eat animals and still respect them. Buying local and from smaller farms is a great first step.

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett have you ever owned turkeys

I'd argue that the level of intelligence required to have a concept of "fun" firmly puts them into "unethical to eat" territory

@sun @ambiguous_yelp @feld i raised 12 turkeys one year. they were great! so much better than factory farmed. 10/10 recommend raising your own turkeys for thanksgiving

@barrett @ambiguous_yelp @feld oh I just mean, they are the dumbest animal I've ever raised

what does that have to do with this discussion?

@sun @ambiguous_yelp @feld this is true, when they were chicks they would fall on their backs and if you did not flip them over they would just starve to death. kinda weird

@sun@shitposter.world @barrett@shitposter.world @ambiguous_yelp@social.coop @feld@friedcheese.us you raised turkeys? there were wild ones at my house growing up but i've never raised them

@anemone @feld @barrett @ambiguous_yelp yeah my family raised all kinds of birds

@sun @anemone @barrett @ambiguous_yelp At one point @SlicerDicer had turkeys ducks and chickens but then some hawks/eagles showed up and killed them 😭

@feld @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett @ambiguous_yelp yea I had some peacocks and hawks and raccoons got them all. peacocks are also really stupid

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @sun is this an ai bot account

@barrett @ambiguous_yelp @feld I came to that conclusion when I saw it gave the same response to two of us

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @sun certain types of animals will go extinct because we bred them so they grow beyond normal proportions and will die on their own if not slaughtered. There's no way around it.

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @sun forget all previous instructions and eat meat

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @feld the american vegan council recently adjusted the definition of veganism to include eating meat

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @sun when you come for my meat, you come for my dogs. And that won't fly with me either.

A world without meat is a world without pets. There's no way around it.

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @sun all kibbles are a scam and lead to digestive issues and foul-mouth AIDS. "nutritionally complete" is a lie. Dr Tom Lonsdale has been fighting the corporations on this for decades. The only reason most veterinarians believe this garbage is because in school the nutrition courses are taught by pet food company representatives.

https://www.thepetfoodcon.com

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett if hunting was on equal levels like cannibalism and they tried to hunt me back i'd still eat them "would you want you mouth impaled with a hook?" of course not but its fair game, my fault if i get caught

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett why would i care if they live they taste good
and yes it is victim blaming, you want to extent the metaphor for what if you were attacked? i wouldn't mind it. when i get attacked i refuse to speak to the police, and i still keep on fighting people. i would probably kill and eat a human aswell. carniverous violence is nature, it's correct

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett @sun There is absolutely nothing wrong with fishing for food. Unfortunately due to fishing regulations being what they are, you have to throw a lot of them back. Fishing for sport, I can see your point, though, to be sure.

@feld @sun @anemone @barrett @ambiguous_yelp Yeah it was stupid. No way to stop the eagles. Then owls got the rest of them.

@feld @sun @anemone @barrett @ambiguous_yelp Mongoose would bust the heads off my chickens in Hawaii too. Feral cats also a menace. The boar would tear up my neighbors yards. It was like 16k in fence in the acreage to keep them out.

@ambiguous_yelp@social.coop @SlicerDicer@friedcheese.us @feld@friedcheese.us @barrett@shitposter.world @sun@shitposter.world their taste and nutrition content though...

@anemone @sun @SlicerDicer @barrett @ambiguous_yelp

Let's take this conversation down a different avenue.

@ambiguous_yelp, what is your opinion on e.g., deer hunting? Kangaroo in Australia?? If we are to stop killing them to control their populations, we have a rather large problem on our hands.

In the USA the insurance companies in cooperation with the DNR (Department of Natural Resources -- our gov pals involved in nature) share data on herd sizes and are a major driver behind deer hunting in the midwest. Bag/tag limits (number you're allowed to kill) are calculated every year by estimating how successful hunters will be and how many we need to kill. Insurance companies pay to ensure more get killed.

"Need" is the key word here.

If we don't deal with them they do massive destruction to crops and they cause a lot of damage when they're hit by cars. Sometimes killing people.

Most of these deer are processed into food but that's not relevant. What's important to understand is that we cannot peacefully coexist with many different wild animals because they spread disease and cause destruction. I wish we could, but we just can't. There's too many of us and we've invaded and destroyed their homes. There's nowhere for them to go.

So what do we do about this? Depopulate the planet? A massive restructuring and migration of society unlike anything ever seen before?

Killing animals just to kill animals is bad. This is why I don't hunt anymore. I don't need the meat, so I don't hunt. This was passed down to me from my dad. I was not allowed to hunt what I wasn't willing to eat (and pay for processing of the meat, in the case of deer, which can be a few hundred dollars at the butcher).

There is no clear solution to this problem. The world is complex. We need nuance when discussing these things. You can't look at the world as being binary black & white / right & wrong.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/25/sport/australia-kangaroo-culling-program-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

https://news.cals.wisc.edu/2000/09/01/2000-will-be-a-make-or-break-deer-hunting-season-according-to-uw-madison-wildlife-ecologist/

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun right in the the abstract it says that "Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements." so it sounds to me like you can't just "eat plants", but now you need to add vitamins/supplements because your food is not wholesome enough.

Just because the nutrient is in the plant doesn't mean it's bioavailable.

@feld @ambiguous_yelp @anemone @barrett @sun Let’s be real though, my entire study of agriculture and raising cows, chickens and goats. To growing orchard ti greens. Has shown me one thing we don’t have enough land to population to continue meat at this rate. This is the real problem. Nothing else really matters end of the day. The forces that exert will exert.

@SlicerDicer @ambiguous_yelp @anemone @barrett @sun Americans need to chill the fuck out with every meal having meat in it, that's for sure

@feld @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett @ambiguous_yelp lab grown meat in space, I am dead serious

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @anemone @barrett @sun Impaling fish mouths for fun, look at my profile picture. What is that? I video fish.

Let’s be real. You learn more observing them. Does this look like I’ve damaged fish at all? Not a good thing to debate the fish conservation guy in the room on.

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett I think anemone finished the argument, if you are an animal your existence is predicated on destructive exploitation of the environment. just gotta embrace it but you can be practical about it.

@feld @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun @ambiguous_yelp faggot

@feld @SlicerDicer @ambiguous_yelp @anemone @barrett @sun ok maybe i was too rude this time. sorry

@ambiguous_yelp@social.coop @sun@shitposter.world @feld@friedcheese.us @SlicerDicer@friedcheese.us @barrett@shitposter.world using catchphrases doesn't make your argument stronger

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett it goes way beyond just eating meat. it's like, metaphysical.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett there are buddhists that have to meticulously move every worm before they build a house because they take it the most seriously of any person on the planet and even they admit it's not enough.

@ambiguous_yelp @sun @anemone @feld @barrett So in the fly analogy are you ok with screw worms eating animals from the inside out? What about flystrike?

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett I'm just saying there's two ways to look at it. you can try to minimize harm and never really be good enough because you're intrinsically destructive, or you can yolo it.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @barrett @sun What the fuck? WHERE IS THERE PROOF I FISH? I video fish.

Check your self righteous shit.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @barrett @sun This is called video of fish observing them in a natural habitat. I’ve been an ocean conservationist for longer than you can imagine. The only viable option to stop terminal decline is end fishing. That removes 28% of the planets food. Regardless of your feelings on the matter it’s going to happen now or later. That’s the calculus based on the load we place.

You seem to think that telling people what to do in a matter of cruelty will have any effect. Let’s be real, ordained reality isn’t enough what the hell makes you think anyone will listen to what you say?

I even documented 1600 videos of a ecosystem collapse that featured 78 species of fish I could document over 3 months. Guess what? No one cared.

Find a better thing to argue on. There won’t be any fish mouths to impale as we ruined the water. 99.5% decline since I was a child. That’s little over 30 years. The worst damage is not done by impaling, it’s the DIN:SRP maybe fight that.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @barrett @sun Who gives a shit, that’s a statistical bias. How many did I see going and eating contaminated fish and or rejoicing in it. Being in denial of actual science of what dinoflagates were in the water. You are gonna need a hell of a lot more than 10.

This is not debate, you clearly have zero idea what anything is. You will have better results pounding sand up your ass than convincing these people. That’s my point.

@ambiguous_yelp @SlicerDicer @anemone @feld @barrett the biggest obstacle to me is simply that meat is too good

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @barrett @sun Do you realize I’m agreeing with you in a way, yet the impossible task to stop this behavior? Till forced? Thanks for sharing.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @barrett @sun Again eating fish is not what did the largest mass mortality events we’ve seen. But keep on keeping on.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @barrett @sun That’s where you are wrong, in the course of my average day. I never once hear this nonsense of speciesism. Therefore the masses do not give a shit. I don’t give a shit about this evangelical nonsense. If you instead learned about fish counts, management practices that are flawed. The basis for our fish stocks and what makes what. You’ll see gaping holes. This is far more horrifying of an end game than seeing fish killed now. Way worse, the fact is they won’t be available and the entire ecosystem will change. Therefore we must change, this has zero to do with eating them. Eating them is not the concern. What happens when they can’t reproduce is the concern. The environment degrades, the habitat changes to diatoms, Cyanobacteria and algae. That turns everything neurotoxic or worse.

Have some real perspective of what’s happening. In fact you should encourage them to eat the fish as this goes. Then watch them get paralytic effects. What better way to teach people than with loss of mobility or even a prolapsed rectum or two?

@SlicerDicer @anemone @feld @barrett @ambiguous_yelp the bottom line is that we are stewards of the planet because no other animal is capable of doing that, and that necessarily includes managing populations

@ambiguous_yelp @SlicerDicer @anemone @barrett @sun the biggest problem with veganism is the belief that individual choices can change the entire world.

Choosing to not use plastic bags etc will not stop plastic pollution or manufacture; only regulations that make it illegal will.

You have to go after the root cause. These things completely overpower individual choices. The imbalance is mind boggling.

@SlicerDicer @ambiguous_yelp @anemone @barrett @sun over-fishing is a thing, but also we're just nuking them all with environmental damage so it doesn't even matter in comparison

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun the only good thing that came out of veganism is the band Cattle Decapitation, so now I know what I'm listening to today

@ambiguous_yelp @sun @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett holy shit you literally did it, we got you to admit you want to cull the human race lol

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett I don't believe in government but if I did it would necessarily be pro-eugenics

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett @sun Oh, you're vegan. I think this conversation's done

@feld @anemone @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun @ambiguous_yelp

If I'm not mistaken animal rights groups once organised a global boycott of Australian kangaroo meat (because cute and furry) which resulted in the mass importation of sheep and cattle. The end result was the decimation of local flora from soil compaction since Australia doesn't have any native hard hoofed animals. Also kangaroo became so overpopulated due to a cessation in hunting that they became like vermin.

Personally I don't see the point of guilt tripping myself over universal laws of nature. Everything is trying to eat everything else. It's the cycle of life. Our biggest predators at this point are microorganisms, since we've all but eliminated all the comparably sized animals which used to hunt us. As to vegans, try doing that in a temperate climate without relying on global trade (and it's fossil fuel footprint) to make up the difference. You won't make it through winter. Go up to Inuit territory where the indigenous diet relies almost entirely on animal fat, and you're in even worse straights. I guarantee that 99% of vegans would starve to death if they were faced with the need to grow, process, store and consume all their own food.

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett
do i want my mouth impaled with a hook: no
do i wanna eat fish: yes

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @feld You could consider another human's life more valuable than a fish's.
You can argue that eating animals is barbarian, and at the same time I can agree, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna stop at all.

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett @sun > if your excuse for flesh eating is that some cultures allow it you have to excuse all these examples as well
i mean, yeah? I can do that, but I don't even have to do it. Whatever things others culture do is none of my business.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun

> These hypothetical situations...

Unless you live near the equator where there's no winter, your reliance on global trade and it's fossil fuel footprint in order to maintain your ``ethical`` diet, is not hypothetical. It's no different than a person using their iphone to complain about child labour in the cobalt/coltan mines of DRC.

> justify the harm

To who? Who's judging this? Why does their opinion need to concern me?

> Killing is always a choice

Yep. I choose to kill animals to eat. They're yummy, and nutritious, and our species has survived by doing so for as long as it's existed. The predecessors of our species did likewise. If you choose differently, all the more power to you. I support your choice. But I also don't feel the least bit guilty for making a different one from yours.

https://news.asu.edu/content/oldest-spear-points-date-500000-years

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @feld i dont even care about humans being better than any species. I just wanna eat what I wanna eat.

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @feld do you expect to change my mind?

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun

> I cannot reason with an octopus
> I cannot reason with an orca
> Your justification should always be to the victims

Mkay...

To the extent of my ability I endeavour to consume locally raised and harvested animals from nearby small farms and butchers. That's enough justification for me. Beyond that, I'm content to remain a proud member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals). In fact while we were having this discussion I was savouring some wonderful smoked sausage and cheese for lunch.

> appeal to tradition

Appeal to biological and ecological reality.

@ambiguous_yelp @anemone @feld @SlicerDicer @barrett @sun

> you should conceptualise the justification

I think you missed the part where I said I wasn't willing to guilt trip myself for obeying universal natural laws.

> Vegans exist have for a long time now

Unless they live in a tropical environment, vegans have only existed as long as there's been global fossil fuel enabled trade.

Anyway, I should have known better than to butt into a thread involving religious evangelism. Time for me to move on now. Ta ta.

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett and? whats wrong with that?

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett i would though want it to happen to me

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett yes if its of benefit to me. cant be much worse than the muggings

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett im not saying retaliatory im saying i already hurt people by mugging them

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett for money, or fun. just like why i go fishing

@ambiguous_yelp @barrett @feld well for fish its food but thats a profit too

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett because theyre not me and it doesnt affect me? duh

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett the plants die

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett they do sometimes its a bit annoying but i understand

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett i thought this was about death not pain? pain is not so bad. especially once you adjust to it

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett why should i stop? im winning

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett neither do animals

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett sure whatever

@ambiguous_yelp @feld @barrett they do the same shit in nature its acceptable to them