@lispi314 @N33R

Really shit advice though, if you help a depressed loser all you'll achieve is build a relationship where they start expecting you to show up to clean their shit all the time.

Never help these people unless they ask for help themselves and even then don't do stuff that they should be doing every time they ask for it, let them rot on their own misery, cure is something that only themselves can achieve and it starts with not having a self-destructive routine, if you interfere they have no incentives to change such routine.

@sally @N33R You've never heard of the spoon theory, have you?

With the right (wrong) set of neuroses and brainworms (cultural baggage matters a lot), what you're suggesting runs into major bootstrapping problems.

@lispi314 @N33R

The spoon theory has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that you can't help a person that's unwilling to change themselves, and if you try you'll just waste your time.

@sally @N33R The energy to be optimistic or willing to attempt change itself requires some spoons.

When you hit rock-bottom, you can't always just bootstrap yourself back up.

@lispi314 @N33R

You're missing the point I'm trying to make.

The problem I'm talking about is not people being unable to do it themselves, what I'm saying is that unless they show a bare minimum attitude or will to change you should not interfere, because they didn't reach a point where they understand why they need to change and how. I already said that helping them is fine so long they do the first step in seeking help, but even then you shouldn't do everything they ask on their behalf, because they will just build a toxic relationship where they do even less than they did and they depend on you for anything, I've seen that shit happening all the time, when it comes to depression you're your own worst enemy.

@sally @N33R > I already said that helping them is fine so long they do the first step in seeking help,

Which with the right cultural brainworms they won't. Some cultures will sooner push them toward suicide than asking for help.

@lispi314 @N33R

What cultures are you talking about exactly? Because it's not true on the West. If you're talking about seeking help from strangers then yeah, obviously strangers will show little to no interest in helping another stranger, on the West and on most other places, but that's a matter of expecting help on the wrong places.

@sally @N33R Actually? A lot of places embroiled with religion and toxic masculinity did exactly that in the West.

That baggage has not been fully purged either and is being actively maintained in many places.

@lispi314 @N33R

If what you said was as true as you believe what does it make you think that there's that many people around that would be the proactive ones in trying to help the victim? The kind of person you'd expect would do that is a close relative or a good friend, and those are often the ones that the victim would ask for help as well, cultural shenanigans are imposed as a form of etiquette and hence why you don't nor should expect help from strangers and nobodies.

@sally @N33R I'm tempted to say you should lookup suicide rates in rural areas, particularly between 1920~1990, in places where either the Catholic or Orthodox church were relevant, but the problem with that is that as I said, they weren't recorded as suicides in very large proportion.

If you happen to live in such a place though, ask your parents or grandparents about it.

You didn't ask family for help, you didn't admit it to family either. "Ideally" you killed yourself from overwork, or alcohol or something similar (if your particular kind of dysfunction permitted that) and avoided the entire question.

@lispi314 @N33R

> I'm tempted to say you should lookup suicide rates in rural areas

I live in a rural area, with a christian/catholic majority, I know big towns have far worse suicide rates than here, people in rural areas are also more sociable and there's more of a sense of community than on human farms. Suicides that happened on rural areas were product of bullying and harassment, rather than lack of aid.

> You didn't ask family for help, you didn't admit it to family either. "Ideally" you killed yourself from overwork, or alcohol or something similar (if your particular kind of dysfunction permitted that) and avoided the entire question.

Tell me how is this issue any different from urban regions, specially when it's far harder to find functional communities in bigger cities.

@sally @N33R @lispi314
you can combine these things tho.
Do something like "I'll do these dishes if you do your fucking invoices immediately".
During depressive episodes basic housework is higher priority then outside stuff, if you combine activation with care you can combine short term progress (kitchen is actually usable again) with medium term progress (Hotel moscow won't show up at your door because of financial obligations) while re-prioritizing action over inaction (help with one thing, leave them the other things as a condition)

@dagda @N33R @lispi314

See? That's an example of good advice.

@dagda @N33R @lispi314

It's also very clever, because it uses mental manipulation and conditioning on someone that has fallen for it (depression is one of the many capitalist psyops to dehumanize crowds).

@sally @N33R @lispi314
Every Psychotherapy except traditional Psychoanalysis is late stage capitalist ideology secularized and disguised as "medicine". I was suggesting what works, not what is ethical. Creating artificial incentive and punishment structures is what behavioral therapy is all about, but even if it is a psyop you are arguably better off as a conditioned wage slave than homeless.
I know this example personally from both perspectives, both as the supporter and the one in need of support.
I should probably get an Analyst, the problem is that Psychoanalysis is a high risk high reward endeavour. You can either solve your shit or get significantly worse because you dug up all kinds of deep horrors. But it's the only therapy that actually works if done right, all else is a short-term patch psyop or medically legitimized drug abuse by the Rapist for personal financial gain and that of big pharma mafia