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the stupid button thing
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sorry but. red will only save everyone in the world if 100% of people agree to it which we already know is impossible because we've seen the numbers. blue will save everyone in the world if 50% of people agree to it which we know is possible. seems pretty straightforward
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the stupid button thing
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@tenthousandisopods the people will be forced to be free

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@tenthousandisopods "why are you pushing the button that kills you instead of the one that doesnt kill you, why do you care about other people, I am very smart"
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@patchuun @tenthousandisopods i dont even think about it in terms of personal benefit its just that the blue button stipulations only matter if there's anyone pressing the blue button in the first place. the tension can be completely avoided if everyone just presses the red button
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@ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods everyone will not press the red button. there will always be people who go blue. you can either be part of the problem (the ones who condemn them) or the solution (the ones who risk themselves to save them)
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@patchuun @tenthousandisopods why do i have to cover for people making a decision that's obviously unnecessary if you spend more than a minute thinking about it
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@ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods because the chance of saving everyone is worth more than the guarantee of saving yourself
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun because it's gonna be a lot of people no matter what and it's bad if they die
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun
red majority:
- large # of people will always vote blue
- people die
blue majority:
- no one dies
without even thinking about ur own vote u should want to live in the second world
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@patchuun @tenthousandisopods well the idea that not everyone will vote for red in practice can be flipped on the argument that a blue majority is strictly easy to obtain so i don't see why the prospect of saving everyone in practice is worth considering. i guess i just can't relate because i don't intrinsically value humans
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@ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods I think all life is sacred so yea we prolly have a basic difference in priors
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun yea that would do it what if it was milkshakes or something
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun not everyone needs to vote for blue only 50% and we've seen that this is achievable
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@tenthousandisopods @ochotona_princeps not only is it achievable but red voters will go into absolute conniptions if it is achieved, calling it "tyranny of the majority" -- as if voting to kill everyone who didnt vote like you isn't tyranny!
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@patchuun @tenthousandisopods but you arent voting *to* kill people, my point is that the tension is created by blue pushers *through* the act of pushing blue and this happens independently of the amount of red pushers or their motives.
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@ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods you are voting to kill people. You don't get to wash your hands of that, sorry. If you vote red youre voting to kill everyone who doesnt think like you and you have to own that and live with it.
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@ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods the blood of everyone who voted blue is on your hands if you vote red and less than 50% of people vote blue. no blood is on anyone's hands if greater than 50% vote blue.
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods at least i know i'll be alive to think about it :^)
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@patchuun @tenthousandisopods no, the blue pushers are opting into a nonzero chance to die when they could just as easily not create the problem to begin with.
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods honestly the correct answer is to find the person that built the damn button and kill them.

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@ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods if you ask me, what blue pushers are opting into is a 100% chance of not letting anyone die. but, whatever helps red pushers sleep at night, I guess. I push the button that says nobody has to die no matter what they individually chose, not the button that says I'm okay with some people dying if they choose "wrong"
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@patchuun @tenthousandisopods but it's not 100%, you still have to convince a majority to vote blue. in practice it's likely at least a few people would die either way, but there's a chance that a lot more people die if you try to get a blue majority and fail.
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods no, it's not likely a few people die either way. if 50.00001% vote blue, 100% of people live. if 50.00001% vote red, 49.9999% die. everybody with a brain and a heart ought to vote blue.
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods no actually i know a few people like me who have a brain aneurysm and are currently dying just reading these math puzzles for infants 24/7
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods 100% is a bigger amount than whatever amount of people will vote red, guaranteed
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods im am dead now from a heart stroke because you were stressing me out, an innocent red voter. gootbye.
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@Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods if you're a red voter, youre not innocent. but I'm sorry for your loss anyway
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods oh dont start with me. a ghost. on this topic.
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@patchuun @Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods you know if you spend time convincing people to push the blue button and then red wins, their blood is kinda on your hands lain_smug3

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@rowb1t @patchuun @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods whats great for patchuun is that they will be dead from this suicidal ragebait play so it doesnt matter.
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@patchuun @Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods @patchuun sorry everyone i cant press either button i have to urgently take a trolley ride with this locked box and 12 differently-colored pills

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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods good thing i don't have a heart. my body runs off a potato plugged into a lightbulb.
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@patchuun @patchuun @tenthousandisopods you can talk about the goodness in people's hearts all you want but you can't know the probability of a blue majority for sure. you *are* gambling on your life and other people's lives when you could have voted for red. how is it not your fault if you convince people to switch from red to blue and then they die when there wouldn't have even been a question of chance of death to begin with if they stuck with red? if everyone lives great but that's not guaranteed
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods I'm not gambling on anyone's life but my own, and I don't particularly care to save it if it means having a hand in killing even just two others, sorry.

>there wouldn't have even been a question of chance of death to begin with if they stuck with red
there's always the question of other people's lives besides their own. do people really not get this? bleak.
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods the probability of people dying if most people vote red is ~100%. thus it's the duty of everyone who isn't okay with deaths of innocents to vote blue. I feel like I'm losing my mind. would you feel okay about living in omelas?
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@rowb1t @Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun oohh this is the fun part. what if you say it the other way. if you spend your time convincing people to push the red button and red wins, blue blood is on your hands. wrong? on a population level the only attainable goal is a blue majority. the reason to vote red is not to win a red majority that's an undesirable side effect
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@tenthousandisopods @Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun if i try to convince people to push the red button, i'm trying to save them -- if they push the red button, they live, full-stop. if i try to convince people to push the blue button, there's a chance i just persuaded them to take an action that resulted in their own death.
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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods I can't even give you shit for using this as a gotcha cuz you're honestly totally right to do so. I really /should/ cut meat out and it's a stain on my integrity that I haven't 🤷‍♀️
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@rowb1t @tenthousandisopods @Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @patchuun if you convince the 51st person of 100 to vote red to save themselves, you've saved 1 and damned 49 others
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods the hilarious thing here is that i, the vegetarian of 18 years, do not consider all life sacred.

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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods do you have any advice on getting over a love of burgers? chicken nuggets are replaceable, I have a vegan nugget brand I love already. but a real proper juicy burger is a lot harder
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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @patchuun i just didnt grow up eating it so its yucky
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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @patchuun lets make this a veggie meat threat instead
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @tenthousandisopods i mean impossible patties are nearly indistinguishable from all but the highest quality beef. but black bean burgers mog all others.
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@patchuun @rowb1t @Erato_Heti @patchuun @tenthousandisopods everyone has the choice not to take a chance with their life, and nobody is obligated to take a chance on their own life for somebody who chose take a chance on theirs of their own volition. picking blue is opting into a problem created by picking blue
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@tenthousandisopods @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t factory farming is like objectively the evilest fucking thing right now tbh so I'm all ears on strategies to divorce myself from it but still letting myself have a little treat
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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @patchuun it's specifically because they *aren't* trying to replicate meat too they're a whole other thing
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@tenthousandisopods @ochotona_princeps @patchuun yeah i generally am not a fan of meat substitutes. there's thousands of years of vegetarian / vegan culinary tradition to pick from.
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@ochotona_princeps @Erato_Heti @patchuun @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods I just don't see it that way, and what's more, can't relate to seeing it that way. And I guess the same is true for you in the inverse. It is what it is. I hope my death is either painless, or painful in a way that I enjoy.
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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @tenthousandisopods impossible meat is actually stupid yummy and i prefer it to beef generally. If you are aesthetically opposed to substituting meat with pretend meat I also really really like veggie masala burgers
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods also you dont get to field a persuasive argument abt what to do in advance in the original prompt.

Theres a paradox here that goes something along the lines of ‘there is a nessecary population that is suicidal/low comprehension enough that we should try to save, but we also have to trust the general will of the anonymous voters to save them.’ What i mean is we have to trust most but not all. When fielded like this it changes the value for opting in because youre helping save people from themselves. I just dont trust a random group of people i cant field with first.
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@Erato_Heti @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun @tenthousandisopods this is kinda the essence of how this particular thought experiment is inferior to the original prisoners' dilemma.
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods the only followup i can add to this is that according to the specious results I actually can trust a population to be preventative without knowing them but i and this was a query done in the heartlands of a propagandized place that values right wing selfishness so maybe my paranoia that people will be able to create a chainlink is off. Like the sampling bias should be im favor of red to begin with right? Idk wtf is going on.
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@rowb1t @ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun @tenthousandisopods everybody gansta and ‘no snitches’ in the prisoners dillema until the person you ran the heist with actually kind of fucking sucks lmao
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods like that seems to be the base rational explanation around this inquiry but who knows how much noise there is in this data. Maybe it was all arbitrated by bots or ppl that just clicked at random to see the results and then read. The social media poll has created the downcurrent of unreliable results we are now posthoc rationalizing and self identifying with.
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@ochotona_princeps @patchuun @patchuun @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods like mr. Beast reran the poll and just said ‘be honest’ and got the saje blue majority. What people dont realize is hat this guys whole thing is getting people to act on instincts without coherent explanation. The first season of his show he asked contestants to, for a million dollar prize pool, drop out in order to save the same people in thier ‘row’ and people in the show did this. So his data is also unreliable because hes priming his audience to act irrationally (probably for imbued assumption of monetary reward for doing ‘the right thing’ or something)
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods Patch and i were gonna make kebab tonight and I wanted to use impossible meat because its yummy and not meat but the store was really confusing and i couldnt find it so i had to choose meat meat instead. And of the meat meat they didnt even have anything as lean as i had wanted so we had to compromise there too! Im so upset
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods which vegan nugget brand do you like I like impossible and qorn
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods ostroveganism is the best diet
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@georgia @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods jack and annie's are my goat but I also like morningstar, impossible is good too. note that I never eat nuggets without dip which does influence my tastes somewhat
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods what's your favorite dip? I like BBQ sauce a lot, and ketchup
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@georgia @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods sweet n' sour, BBQ, buffalo, or teriyaki for the nugs, ketchup (purrhaps with a little buffalo mixed in if I have any leftover after the nugs are gone) for the fries :3
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@georgia @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods speaking of buffalo, that's one other thing keeping me mired in carnism...cauliflower wings are nice, don't get it twisted! but it's just not the same...
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods I prefer cauliflower to chicken tbh. I think im having cauliflower tonight with brocolli. I could fairly easily cut out chicken and pork again but I need my fish... honestly I like beef way better than chicken and pork and its the only thing I havent touched since I originally went vegetarian. hindu guilt I guess.
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@georgia @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods I could probably be a pescetarian honestly. I love fish. if anything that's probably gonna be my gateway to eventual vegetarianism someday
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@ochotona_princeps@social.xenofem.me @rowb1t@social.xenofem.me @tenthousandisopods@yearning.gay @patchuun@social.xenofem.me The best replacement for meat is the gag reflex you will get after a decade of not eating it, in my experience :D You will forget what it tastes like, and then you will come across some vegan fake meat burger, and you'll be like ewww this smells like meat, I feel like I'm going to throw up, why did they have to make it smell like burning dead bodies, help, ugh.

On a more serious note, I think the body craves it a lot less if you fulfill your needs in other ways. A lot of olive oil every day for fatty energy, and lots of protein from chickpeas and lentils and beans, plus at least 5 different kinds of veggies and two kinds of fruits every day. If your body has what it needs, it won't crave things (with the exception of sugar, the body always craves sugar, whether simple glucose, fructose, or starches, a vicious never-ending cycle craving more and more, I recommend minimizing sugar intake as much as possible, especially easily absorbed stuff like bread and juice).
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@patchuun @ochotona_princeps @rowb1t @tenthousandisopods if you catch wild-caught fish they suffer much less than factory farmed animals. however the fishing industry is rapacious and fish are increasingly full of microplastics...
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