georgia
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तत् त्वम् असि
I post silly cats sometimes
georgia
georgia
I'd do anything to get my best friend (not the racist one) back like when we were closest
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georgia
odd that he focuses on the anti-woman insults instead of the anti-jewish insults. incel perhaps?
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@subnetter @sally @Ree @patchuun @scathach smh they dont consider themselves arabs. at least not the ones ive met. (my SPED teacher in 10th grade) its like the christians who consider themselves Assyrians or arameans.
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@subnetter @Ree @patchuun @scathach studies on ashkenazi jews find we are (until recent intermarriage) incredibly monolithic with a founder effect and a bottleneck, so its not really an issue of many ashkenazi jews. its an issue of "how much". reputable studies ive seen (anything not by elhaik I consider reputable) range from jews being 25-58 percent middle eastern. thats a substantial portion, enough to help make calling ashkenazi jews european oversimplistic. one recentish study found that ashkenazi jews are 60 percent canaanite related (not necessarily canaanite, but canaanite related), and moroccan jews 70 percent. I should also note that sephardic jews and ashkenazi jews are very closely related, yet few discount sephardic jews as indigenous (except elhaik, lol, I think he said they were Kurds?). anyway, even if its true that ashkenazi jews are only 25 percent middle eastern, being indigenous is a matter of being defined as indigenous by an indigenous people. the israelites consider converts to be fellow israelites and accept them into the sphere of their indigenous culture, sacred language, and religion. and ashkenazi jews bear those things and are part of the "jewish story". I believe its existence that makes a people, not essence. prior to america weve always been treated like foreigners, except perhaps briefly by cosmopolitan roman pagans, so we became perpetual foreigners. and existence, not essence, also made the palestinian people separate from syrians, jordanians, and lebanese.
as far as the necessity of israel, I do believe it was necessary for a jewish state to be formed. the proof is the antisemitism I see every day. in another thread ive been arguing with a bunch of holocaust deniers. its not that deep for me. honestly, I am not religiously jewish and israel is more sacred to me for jesus than for moses. but people who hate jews with every fiber of their being keep making it my problem. my ex best friend just posted "I wish the holocaust had happened" just the other day. it made me feel frankly violated, he kissed me more than once without my consent. anyway, theres a lot of folks like him. leftists now like to say its all Israels fault they exist, but nazis say the holocaust was jews fault too, if they admit it happened at all, so that doesnt convince me too much.
as far as the necessity of israel, I do believe it was necessary for a jewish state to be formed. the proof is the antisemitism I see every day. in another thread ive been arguing with a bunch of holocaust deniers. its not that deep for me. honestly, I am not religiously jewish and israel is more sacred to me for jesus than for moses. but people who hate jews with every fiber of their being keep making it my problem. my ex best friend just posted "I wish the holocaust had happened" just the other day. it made me feel frankly violated, he kissed me more than once without my consent. anyway, theres a lot of folks like him. leftists now like to say its all Israels fault they exist, but nazis say the holocaust was jews fault too, if they admit it happened at all, so that doesnt convince me too much.
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georgia
georgia
my poor tongue hurts so much from last nights beating (unsexy kind) and today's acids and heats
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georgia
@grips @genmaicha he said why he came up with it. it was to distance jews from the killing of jesus.
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georgia
repeated
repeated
georgia
georgia
@bajax @Kazak I want to note that this doesnt include the holodomor, which is not denied. its mostly used by Lithuanians who dont want to feel guilty about killing more of their jewish neighbors than the Germans themselves did. and it doesnt just mean soviets, it usually means to imply that jews specifically committed a genocide against the Lithuanian nation.
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@subnetter @Ree @patchuun @scathach
when I said I have a nuanced view, I was setting myself apart from those mostly influenced by the cold war dipole between zionist-american historiography and soviet-arab historiography (and the many leftist westerners who became sympathetic to the latter such). both sides are very biased towards their certain set of facts, and you seem to be latter. thats okay, because youre not irrational.
for instance, you dont deny jews are descended from canaanites when pressed, hm???
I'll address your points now.
the "jews living in harmony with christians and muslims" is a popular idea in palestinian historiography, to the extent they called jews established in palestine before 1947 "palestinians" (even though they overwhelmingly identify as jews and Israelis, and include and are no different from ashkenazi, sephardic, and mizrahi jews). the fact is that the jewish population in palestine has fluctuated a great deal after the roman expulsions and since the christian and islamic conquests. while the christians and the crusaders expelled the jews from jerusalem, under Islamic rule those jews were tolerated as dhimmis. they were a minority who acted like it and who didnt seek representation in the form of statehood. once their sizes grew enough though, the pogroms and boycotts of jewish businesses began. and it wasnt violence they were protesting, at this point most violence was pogroms against jews (for jews were outnumbered). it was the jewish immigration they protested, which I would definitely call settlement but not colonialism. to explain why, i disagree with calling it colonialism from the beginning because the jews were a stateless people, not a colony of any nation, what you mustve picked up on is that I noted it was influenced by european colonialism, and it was, but it was also influenced by a jewish nationalism as old as the hasmoneans. I only start to call it colonialist when the Israelis sought to form colonies of the state of israel in other nations and to-be nations. so zionism now is colonialist I would say, but I would not say it began as such. this isnt just a semantic matter, it rests on a denial of jewish peoplehood independent from where we lived (which at least you didnt deny) and jewish origins in Canaan (which you also didnt deny).
the comparison to the native americans (calling it a "holocaust" instead of just a genocide is frankly invidious and provocative in this context) is incredibly flawed. first off, as ive said you did not contest, both jews and palestinians are native to palestine. but perhaps the biggest flaw of course in an overarching genocide narrative is that the population of palestinians has consistently grown, whereas the native americans shrunk to practically nothing due mostly to diseases, but also due to forced marches and recognized genocidal acts particularly in the case of the trail of tears. the current war in gaza is genocidal because of the bombing of hospitals and other civilian services and the restriction of food and medicine, but it overall has a death toll nowhere near rivaling the total deaths of native americans.
another distinction is that we subjected native americans to cultural genocide. compare native americans on reservations forced to be reeducated in white schools to palestinians in israel or even in refugee camps who almost always are educated by other palestinians (this brings up UNRWA, which exists to keep palestinians dispossessed not to resettle them unlike every other refugee the UN serves). now ive heard complaints of Israeli cultural appropriation of arab things, especially arab food, which has merit, but only when you forget that half of Israels jews come from arab countries and ate that arab food. what else on this subject? both americans and jews were influenced by a sort of manifest destiny in their expanding settlements, and youre right that both oppressed a native people and left them confined to certain areas of autonomy. jewish expansionism is motivated by revanchism in particular, thats a fairly minor but notable difference.
anyway, were probably not going to agree on this topic. ive found I disagree with most people and half agree with many people because most people accept one set of narratives and facts while I accept both.
when I said I have a nuanced view, I was setting myself apart from those mostly influenced by the cold war dipole between zionist-american historiography and soviet-arab historiography (and the many leftist westerners who became sympathetic to the latter such). both sides are very biased towards their certain set of facts, and you seem to be latter. thats okay, because youre not irrational.
for instance, you dont deny jews are descended from canaanites when pressed, hm???
I'll address your points now.
the "jews living in harmony with christians and muslims" is a popular idea in palestinian historiography, to the extent they called jews established in palestine before 1947 "palestinians" (even though they overwhelmingly identify as jews and Israelis, and include and are no different from ashkenazi, sephardic, and mizrahi jews). the fact is that the jewish population in palestine has fluctuated a great deal after the roman expulsions and since the christian and islamic conquests. while the christians and the crusaders expelled the jews from jerusalem, under Islamic rule those jews were tolerated as dhimmis. they were a minority who acted like it and who didnt seek representation in the form of statehood. once their sizes grew enough though, the pogroms and boycotts of jewish businesses began. and it wasnt violence they were protesting, at this point most violence was pogroms against jews (for jews were outnumbered). it was the jewish immigration they protested, which I would definitely call settlement but not colonialism. to explain why, i disagree with calling it colonialism from the beginning because the jews were a stateless people, not a colony of any nation, what you mustve picked up on is that I noted it was influenced by european colonialism, and it was, but it was also influenced by a jewish nationalism as old as the hasmoneans. I only start to call it colonialist when the Israelis sought to form colonies of the state of israel in other nations and to-be nations. so zionism now is colonialist I would say, but I would not say it began as such. this isnt just a semantic matter, it rests on a denial of jewish peoplehood independent from where we lived (which at least you didnt deny) and jewish origins in Canaan (which you also didnt deny).
the comparison to the native americans (calling it a "holocaust" instead of just a genocide is frankly invidious and provocative in this context) is incredibly flawed. first off, as ive said you did not contest, both jews and palestinians are native to palestine. but perhaps the biggest flaw of course in an overarching genocide narrative is that the population of palestinians has consistently grown, whereas the native americans shrunk to practically nothing due mostly to diseases, but also due to forced marches and recognized genocidal acts particularly in the case of the trail of tears. the current war in gaza is genocidal because of the bombing of hospitals and other civilian services and the restriction of food and medicine, but it overall has a death toll nowhere near rivaling the total deaths of native americans.
another distinction is that we subjected native americans to cultural genocide. compare native americans on reservations forced to be reeducated in white schools to palestinians in israel or even in refugee camps who almost always are educated by other palestinians (this brings up UNRWA, which exists to keep palestinians dispossessed not to resettle them unlike every other refugee the UN serves). now ive heard complaints of Israeli cultural appropriation of arab things, especially arab food, which has merit, but only when you forget that half of Israels jews come from arab countries and ate that arab food. what else on this subject? both americans and jews were influenced by a sort of manifest destiny in their expanding settlements, and youre right that both oppressed a native people and left them confined to certain areas of autonomy. jewish expansionism is motivated by revanchism in particular, thats a fairly minor but notable difference.
anyway, were probably not going to agree on this topic. ive found I disagree with most people and half agree with many people because most people accept one set of narratives and facts while I accept both.
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