i'm not really a purgatorial universalist. hell's fires are not correcting fires: they are the unjust, miserable, pointless consequences of unjust, miserable, pointless dispositions of the heart. purgatory is something else: it's a gift, it's a chance to do the penances you could not do in life and by doing them repudiate the hells that you took on. purgation is the fruit of perfect justice, hellfire is the fruit of abhorrent injustice. we have to be harrowed from the latter by mercy to enjoy the former in justice

i prefer universalism which is deeply uncomfortable with the existence of hell instead of sanctioning its temporary existence. the noble striving is for the abolition of every hell. not of purgation, but of every hell

@lilli I believe in the dharmic view of hell but this is a good take

@lilli i'm beginning to think these posts might not be ironic

@elementals i am legit so serious bestie, the cㅤhristianity has wormed deep into my brain

@lilli wack

this does make me wonder if members of a plural system are considered separately for afterlife purposes. i'd still want to be able to hang out with the other ladies though. for harassment purposes

@elementals chㅤristianity really doesn't view the soul and the body as ultimately separable, so even if there is a plurality of souls rather than a multifaceted quality of soul, there is one body which cannot be both saved and damned

@elementals @lilli im glad i was too autistic to even wonder if it was ironic in the first place

@detondev @elementals you also didn't know me before mid-january, when my eclectic-biblical-spinozist-occultic-monotheism condensed into christiaㅤnity. i was mutuals with elementals before i was like this

@lilli so what you're saying is that there's a theological basis for system responsibility. cool.

@georgia @lilli what's the dharmic view of hell?

@lilli @elementals unsurprised it did, shit just sounds like the collective wet dreams of closeted bishops

@detondev @elementals this is an insane statement which i can barely parse lmao

@sathariel @lilli well the Buddhist and Jainist hells deemphasize hell as being a product of Gods justice but also Gods love so lets just say my take is a Hindu take. That there are numerous hell realms, places of suffering as real as this world were in now (in contrast with the idea that hell is like, a product of an evil persons mind existing in a void, or a product of merely being distant from God) of varying severity where you burn off bad karmas accumulated in past live(s) as a necessary step allowing you to be reborn into a more favorable life in an earth realm/ and eventually moksha. I also believe in very specific hells/punishments for specific sins/cases.

some Hindu philosophers believe that some souls are sentenced to dwell in hell forever or dwell in samsara forever, I do NOT believe that.

@georgia @sathariel @lilli This is pretty similar to Dante's Purgatory.

@k @sathariel @lilli ive never read Dante's Inferno

@k @lilli @sathariel when I say I believe hells are uniquely catered to specific sins besides just being places of suffering that means that for some people hell could very well be just being stuck inside their own twisted mind. as long as suffering is relatively intense and unavoidable, its a hell. I don't believe in hells with minimal suffering or where its hard to suffer- they would be incredibly hard to get out of which doesnt match with Gods incredible mercy.

@georgia @sathariel @lilli Read the whole Comedy if you do. The Inferno is the juicy part but it's important to understand the entire hierarchy.

Guenon saw the Comedy as part of the same tradition as the Vedas. I don't agree with him because the Divine Mountain pattern doesn't seem to exist outside Jewish/Christian mysticism but I understand why he does. For Dante, everyone is exactly where they intended to be in a way reminiscent of karma.

@georgia @sathariel @lilli The specifics aren't going to be identical ofc.

@georgia @k @lilli it reminded me this lol

@georgia @sathariel @k a dharmic view of hell rly sounds like origen/purgatorial universalism but considerably elaborated due to not being a fringe condemned heresy

@georgia @lilli one of my friends is into nichiren Buddhism, I've talked to him and assisted to some of their rites and "lectures" (dunno if this is the correct term). I remember that when they talked about the 9(not sure if this was the number) realms they seemed more like states of consciousness rather than afterlife places to my understanding. But they talked about the possibility to move to any of the realms from any other and the possibility of attain Buddhahood from any, that was an interesting view for me.

@lilli @georgia @sathariel The direction is probably reversed because a consistent view of hell doesn't show up in Christianity for a few hundred years, whereas it's pretty clear in the Vedic tradition as early as you can trace it.

It's not clear exactly what the lineage is but the Neoplatonists have a too-similar-to-be-coincidence cosmology to Hinduism and the Christians adopt Neoplatonism around the same time as hell becomes a universal belief, so my guess is Christian hell (universalist or otherwise) genetically comes from India.

@k @georgia @lilli I feel many times persons into traditionalism or perennial philosophy try to hard to fit everything as the same, and while I can see a common ground in spiritual experience it doesn't need to be exactly equal for everyone or every culture

@sathariel @georgia @lilli Perennialists are usually accurate in their assessment of what the cross-cultural universals are, but when it comes to the why they get schizo with it.

The Jesuits took notice of this long before the Perennialists did.

@lilli @sathariel @k hell in dharmic religions is also generally located beneath the Earth, but I dont believe "underworld" is literal just like we can't see the ocean of milk in the vedic sense. in the particular cosmologies of dharmic religions there are various numberings of hell realms (in Hinduism usually 28) but I don't buy that humans know Gods systemizations of heavens and hells, I think theyre countless.

youd like the story of Ajamila. hes a sinful brahmin, who upon his death is pursued by the agents of Yama the God of death who rules over the underworld. They aim to drag his soul to hell. As he is dying Ajamila calls out the name of his son Narayana, which is also a name/lying on a snake in the ocean form of the Supreme God Vishnu. Upon hearing the name of their Lord, the servants of Vishnu protect Ajamila, and say that because he called upon the name of the Lord, even though he wasn't referring to God but to his son, Ajamilas sins are wiped clean. Ajamila sees this dialogue between the two and repents and by this achieves liberation.

I thought it was they keep getting reincarnated because life is suffering and you live in hell so try better until you eventually escape the cycle

@k @georgia @sathariel @lilli genetically speaking hell is india

@georgia @sathariel @k @lilli
You will die a virgin.

@k @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @p @lilli take your meds you are replying to nothing

@k @mkultra @ForbiddenDreamer @RustyCrab @georgia @lilli @lina @sathariel

> I don't think you know much about it.

You'd be incorrect here; he is an expert.

@p @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @k @lilli remind me why im tagged btw, i can't see whatever mkultra posts and the wussie over at k blocked me as soon as i pointed out that he's replying to nothing

@lina @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @k @lilli I don't know why any of this is happening. I just got back online after some days out.

@p @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @k @lilli lame, cuz this entire thread except for the wussie was invisible to me and then i get tagged in to what amounts to that mkultra guy thinking i'm his friend and will take his side or some shit when i don't even give a shit

@lina @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @k @lilli MKULTRA is a genius, you just have to pay attention a while.

@p @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @k @lilli geniuses are fucking lame i don't know why you think that'd be a positive in my eyes when i call myself a retard and am proud of it

@lina @mkultra @RustyCrab @georgia @ForbiddenDreamer @sathariel @k @lilli Well, it's your call, but I think he's worth reading. You don't have to, no one's gonna start spending ammo.