aborting babies for "eugenic" reasons is literally futile. its an attempt to cheat God, and God always wins. all youre doing is giving yourself worse karma (and thus are more likely to have difficult children in future lifetimes) by having an abortion.

@georgia what if you don't have the resources to care for a special needs child?

@tides then don't have sex. "I want the child eugenics will give me, not the child God will give me" is not a valid position imo

@georgia are you anti-abortion in general or just against aborting disabled fetuses?

@nautilus I'm anti-abortion except in cases of rape and harm to the mother. abortion is violence against the weak. eugenic abortion is particularly insidious.

@georgia what do you define as harm to the pregnant person?

how do you propose to screen out "legitimate" abortions from the ones that are wrong?

also, I am pro-choice, but I find the rape exception some pro-lifers have kinda puzzling because it implies that certain fetuses do not have a right to live depending on the circumstances of their conception (which are beyond their control)

@nautilus harm to me means a doctor believes their life is at risk. I consider rape a valid exception because raped women are not responsible for being pregnant and carrying a baby conceived from rape to term is understandably psychologically violent. its all about responsible individuals having the responsibility to prevent violence to me. if you aren't a responsible individual who can take care of a baby you shouldnt be having straight sex.

@georgia do you think it's OK for parents to relinquish responsibilities for an unwanted newborn under safe haven laws? like leaving them at a fire station or hospital

@nautilus I think adoption is vastly preferable to abortion because its less violent, but its still somewhat unethical because it often creates trauma and the adoption system isnt very good in a lot of places. again, the truly responsible should simply use redundant forms of contraception or just not have sex. people talk about how liberating abortion was to women's lives in allowing then to compete in the workplace with men and not be derailed for 20 years, I'm all for the equality of the sexes (I dont think "a woman's place is in the home", everyone should do what they are best individually suited to, that is the true svadharma) but I think "dont have sex, or use birth control" just isnt that hard. I have gone my entire life without sex or an orgasm. people are obsessed with sex though.

@georgia @nautilus
>I think adoption is vastly preferable to abortion because its less violent, but its still somewhat unethical because it often creates trauma and the adoption system isnt very good in a lot of places.

I'm speaking mainly from the experience of seeing a close relative adopting because they're infertile, but at least here there's a lot stigma agains adopting.

The major ones I remember seeing is that a lot of people don't see an adopted kid as a kid, with thoughts like "You can't just give it up later" or "in the end it's not your child", which IMO makes a lot of people think that adopted kids are some kind of vanity object instead of a child being taken care of.

I imagine that if that stigma didn't existed, adoption wouldn't had a lot of those problems

@georgia I think we're in agreement that quality of life, whether due to a person's disability or other life circumstances, is not a good indicator of whether they should be born or not

however I still think opposition to abortion to protect the weak is misplaced, because it places hypothetical (and very dubious prospect of) fetal pain above the real pain of the unwillingly pregnant person. people who give up their newborns for adoption also experience trauma that often goes unackowledged in discussions about this. adoption is not a fix-all and I'm not convinced that fetuses can be victims themselves

I also don't think a feminist future is possible unless we can thoroughly separate the PIV sexual act from reproduction and reproductive logics. speaking solely of biological reproduction (and in cisgender generalities here for a moment), it is one of the primary vectors through which women are oppressed. men do not face nearly the same penalty for fatherhood that mothers do for motherhood. opposition to abortion is inherently misogynistic because the burden of it disproportionately falls on women. there are women being prosecuted for natural miscarriages in the name of "protecting the weak." (for the record I think this applies to all women in different ways regardless of whether they can get pregnant or not)

@kumicota @nautilus taking care of any kid is virtuous but adopting is very virtuous. I wish there werent such a stigma against it.

@georgia holy shit based arc
to be clear though, i don't see how this sits comfortably with your [incorrect, pessimistic] perspective on the state of nature. i wonder how you square those two things.

@nautilus I dont oppose abortion because of fetal pain which is somewhat dubious youre right. I oppose it because of the death of what will become a person. the killing of an organism that is dependent on another organism at its first stage of life is still killing, and I'm against killing, even of most insects.

I agree with most of your last paragraph. women's oppression is deeply rooted in the burden of reproduction while men perpetuate patriarchy to ensure their control of both womens sexuality and even moreso that they will have male heirs. but I think abortion is no solution to this disparity, in fact abortion has disproportionately affected pre-birth girls in countries like india and china especially creating significant sex gaps. I think the solution is no longer having a society obsessed with porn and sex, and promoting sex education and contraception and other tools like plan B. this has no downsides I can think of. I dont consider feminism (even radical feminism) and being pro-life antithetical to eachother, for me they are both rooted in opposition to entrenched systems of violence that disproportionately affect the disenfranchised.

@georgia @tides but there is no god?

@HatkeshiatorTND what's my perspective on nature? I have the shaktadvaitavada perspective that all nature is an expression of saguna brahman and the kashmir shaivite perspective that all of reality is consciousness/vibrating consciousness (energy). I dont have the mayavada perspective that reality is fake and gay, I consider it to be more like a dream, and dreams are real, just more transient.

@georgia your estimation of man's nature ungoverened by law and authority is influenced by fictional works like the lord of the flies and the writings of thomas hobbes, is it not?

@protos @tides bhagavad gita 16 7-16

@HatkeshiatorTND I read lord of the flies in school but I never read thomas hobbes. I'm fairly familiar with his attitude though. I dont like either of their conclusions about the nature of man, which I believe belong to a time later in kali yuga than this when people are even more reprobate (one could call it total depravity like a pr*t*st*nt). but even in such times rare souls will still appear to spread the dharma. I like the nordic system as far as governance goes (in absence of a truly God ordained theocracy), its one of my libshittier views. I just think that if a country is the happiest in the world, its doing something correctly.

@georgia @tides Zarathustra 24 12-19

@protos @tides you can't pay me to read Nietzsche.

@georgia why not?

@georgia surprised to see this take from you. what about down syndrome? if you're in the 1st trimester and genetic testing shows the baby has trisomy what then?

@georgia i have you muted with reason "hobbesian." i don't think you've heightdoxxed, which means it can't be me makong a joke about you being "nasty, brutish, and short" so you must have spoken like him at some point.
countries don't do things, because countries don't exist. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nominalism

@HatkeshiatorTND lmao I'm not a hobbesian at all. I dont like government and I tend to like people. I'm 5' 4.5" so fairly average for a woman