Conversation
georgia
georgia
honestly its become clear to me that most people accept mass death to further their political goals. its always justified to them if its for their team. and its not just political extremists either.
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renellen
subnetter@shitposter.world
@georgia I don't know about "mass death" but can you point to any point in history with meaningful change that wasn't achieved through force?
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@subnetter I sure can! the indian independence movement was spearheaded by nonviolent activists.
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@georgia @subnetter not exclusively. Indian independence is a highly airbrushed subject. Consider Bhagat Singh, Jenner, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagat_Singh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagat_Singh
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@jeremiah @subnetter I know it wasnt exclusively nonviolent but it was predominantly so. in that regard it was a lot like the civil rights movement in america.
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@georgia @subnetter when you consider the partition and countless lives that alone cost... We're back to airbrushed history and a lack of proportion in terms like "mostly nonviolent."
Like the American civil rights movement, it was social engineering in a dress, even if the ranks included a lot of well meaning true believers.
Like the American civil rights movement, it was social engineering in a dress, even if the ranks included a lot of well meaning true believers.
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@jeremiah @subnetter the mass violence you speak of was caused by the partition itself not by the independence movement. supporting anticolonialism doesnt mean one supports inter-religious strife. and all social movements even ones you like are forms of "social engineering", efforts to change the mind of the target demographic.
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@georgia @subnetter if your anticolonial effort inevitably leads to the deaths of 2 million and 20 million displaced you can't write it off on the margins because it wasn't a desired side effect.
To call all movements "social engineering" is to acknowledge them all as imperious coercion and manipulation, which is not the same as simple influence efforts or even many organized efforts to effect change, far too broad a brush.
To call all movements "social engineering" is to acknowledge them all as imperious coercion and manipulation, which is not the same as simple influence efforts or even many organized efforts to effect change, far too broad a brush.
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@georgia @subnetter The nonviolent Indian independence movement only worked because a) they were lucky enough to be fighting people who cared about a compassionate public image and b) because it was backed up by the threat of terrorism if the peaceful way didn't work. Apartheid SA and the civil rights movement in the USA where much the same
Unfortunately when it comes to major political change nonviolence only works in a small minority of cases, and then only as one tactic among many
Unfortunately when it comes to major political change nonviolence only works in a small minority of cases, and then only as one tactic among many
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@scathach @georgia @subnetter also the civil rights movements had powerful allies in the politican and legal and cultural spheres
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@scathach @subnetter i still think it doesnt require the kind of mass death I meant in my OP. I meant things like the gaza genocide, the "war on terror", famines associated with communism, etc. not a few hundred or thousand people dying due to political militant acts. (terrorism for good or ill)
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pettanko ✝️ 
pettanko@tsundere.love
@georgia I guess on some level. Like I imagine if you just straight up asked most people “would you be willing to kill millions in order to reshape the politics of this country to your desire?” the overwhelming answer would be no, but that doesn’t mean that, if the deaths were “systemicized” and swept under the rug that they wouldn’t be willing to just go along with it.
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pettanko ✝️
pettanko@tsundere.love
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renellen
subnetter@shitposter.world
@georgia @jeremiah civil rights movement in America has been largely rewritten as nonviolent. MalcomX is not heavily discussed in American public schools and any mention of MLK Jr. Is a sanitized version of who he was, never a mention that he was heavily red.
Many casualties not including COINTELPRO and efforts to incarcerate and/or assassinate against prominent members of the Black Panther Party such as Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.
Many casualties not including COINTELPRO and efforts to incarcerate and/or assassinate against prominent members of the Black Panther Party such as Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.
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@genmaicha @georgia @scathach this is one major point a Black elder told me at a protest event against the Palestinian genocide. She was telling me about the similarities she saw in the situations but the biggest difference she noted was that during the civil rights movement white allies did help bolster the cause.
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renellen
subnetter@shitposter.world
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@subnetter @scathach youre misinterpreting
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