both transphobia and homophobia are rooted in misogyny regardless of birth sex

@georgia more need to understand this

@georgia I'm not an expert, but think the most common transphobia is a disgust response against gender variance.

@georgia in my personal opinion and perspective.

homophobia is more of a fear your same-sex/same-gender entities hitting on you, and in male case specifically the inmost fear of anal penetration (fecal fear). transphobia is kinda related but more complicated than that, it's literally falls into the "it's a trap" meme, which is kind of a shame, but overall it all comes down to "penetrate or be penetrated" and the precise subject of penetration (anal vs vaginal).

from female perspective (in my imagination) it's really more about female competition for males, again this is my (retarded) understanding that women see each other as inherent rivals, so yuri (female homosexuality) seems very contradictory to instinct, and transfems seem like even more competition.

all in all it's all just fucking retarded and i want to get out.

@hj @georgia

>"penetrate or be penetrated"

What is this, a competition?

@coolboymew @georgia it literally is and i hate it

@hj @georgia women hating other women is there anything more natural in this world

@hj @georgia to an extent its just culturally programmed.

@Mr_NutterButter @georgia kids being cruel

@icedquinn @georgia the memes...

It's just common sense!

@hj while youre right that a lot of homophobia against men is fear of being penetrated its moreso fear of being emasculated in general. your understanding of lesbophobia is wrong in my opinion. the idea is that women shouldnt "act like men" because women are inferior and thus can't be superior men, and that qualities which are good in men ruin women. all homophobia and transphobia are imo is "natal males/AMABS can't be/act like women because women are bad" and "natal females/AFABS can't be/act like men because women are bad." so in both cases, misogyny.

What about people that are grossed out by poop

@georgia honestly I accept that I'm wrong about a lot of things, since I'm pretty weird (and by ex dumped me because I "treated her as a friend not as a girlffriend") so i concede.

there is an entire topic of "i have to be weak but i wanna be strong" but somehow i feel it's not entirely connected

@sun that was part of hjs point. I'm grossed out by poop and thus hate butt stuff (also, not very into butts), but im not homophobic against gay men. the fear of spreading diseases is part of homophobia for many people and I won't say one can't be homophobic because of that, but I think its usually "men acting like women is bad" as the primary or at very least a secondary factor, hence you get so many straight men into butt stuff with women these days and also acceptance of masculine gay men who top historically. also, not all male sex with men is anal. that conception imo is rooted in a heterosexual coitus-centered understanding of sex.

Ok but butt stuff is absolutely coupled with much much higher disease risk. It just is. Not saying that’s an excuse to hate people but people that do butt stuff, including heterosexual couples, are going to have to accept that it’s reasonable to find it vile. I can’t think of a nice way to say that. My out is I made a conscious choice to not care if people choose to do whatever as long as it’s consensual

@georgia
I have always felt strong misogyny AND misandry directed towards me when folks are acting transphobic. They hate me on both counts because they're applying their biases against both to me. For this reason, although not this reason alone, I find both misogyny and misandry to be intolerable, and unfortunately, misandry is not taken as seriously as it should be.
@hj

@sun I agree with you that hatred of gay men can be caused by finding them dirty (like I said, I find anal sex disgusting but I dont find gay men themselves disgusting) but "they spread diseases" is very often an excuse to hate when the real reason is not so justifiable, like with refugees and the poor and medieval antisemitism. hence for homophobes it usually goes like "they get diseases because theyre bad" and not "theyre bad because they get diseases".

@stickers @hj what do you mean when you say misandry is applied against you as well? I usually find that what's called misandry is actually another thing. like hatred of the poor or the criminal or the mentally ill.

@georgia @hj
One example is that TERFs see transwomen as men, and they despise men, and therefore project all of their hatred of men onto transwomen.

@georgia @sun One thing related to that always surprises me is the amount of people who that for some reason thinks you can't get HIV from straight sex, many times online and IRL, I've seen people and some of them have a higher degree than mine, saying with an open face that straight people can't get it

@kumicota @georgia of course you can but it’s phenomenally easier with buttsex

@sun @georgia I know but there's people who thinks you can't get it from straight buttsex

@stickers @hj this is true about many lesbian transfemme-excluding feminists but most terfs these days are married mumsnet types, not spinsters or lesbians. they use rhetoric which suggests they hate men talking about male violence and rape and male criminality but they rely on cis men to enforce transphobic policies and they are devoted to their husbands and male children.

@kumicota @georgia oh well that is straight up wrong. That said, women who get aids almost always get it from a man who also did…buttsex with another man

@sun @kumicota AIDS is still prevalent in Africa and buttsex is viewed extremely negatively there

@georgia @kumicota yeah it’s true, similar reason though they prefer abrasive sex and other places prefer lubricants including natural ones like ur body’s

@sun @georgia That's not true. Vaginal fluids and semen carries viruses too, including HIV. While the chance of buttsex is way higher, the chance of normal sex isn't negligible

@georgia @kumicota there are just a lot of cultural things that make it particularly bad also like, men will keep a wife in multiple villages and spread it a lot further

@kumicota @georgia you can read American CDC studies on it. Yeah it’s possible but look at who actually gets it

@sun @kumicota where did you get that idea? it seems dubious. most men in africa are not circumsized even though islam is prevalent in many places there. and AIDS isnt common in other muslim countries as far as I know.

@hj @georgia @coolboymew no, literally, I am more messed up from just growing up surrounded by people who talked about consensual sex like this, than I am from any specific abuse thrown at me

@sun @georgia
Aren't those studies about groups affected by HIV and not the transmissibility? Because if is the former that's false equivalence

@kumicota @georgia both, I spent a lot of time reading about this. Men have sex with men in prison and they give aids to their girlfriend when they get out. So I’m not denying straight sex gives you aids but the butt sex is still the common factor

@kumicota @georgia it’s not a false equivalence because it still involves the behavior that mechanically is at higher risk for transmission

@sun @georgia I’m a Kinsey 2 (so, bi, but not very) and grossed out by poop and only like butts insofar as female ones are gorgeous to look at and knead on.

@clawfulneutral @sun I have seen some beautiful female butts but I prefer butts from the front as paired with waists and hips. the actual butthole I find gross.

@georgia @sun yeah same, not into buttholes. even if meticulously cleaned and photogenic, I’m not interested in gazing at ‘em.

@kumicota @georgia there are two separate issues. Piv sex can spread aids. But anal sex it’s much much much more transmissible. So it goes through those populations more. Not just gay men. But men who have been in jail and opportunistically have sex with other men but are not gay

@sun @kumicota you said youve studied AIDS dissemination routes, where did you get "in Africa they have rough sex?"

@sun @kumicota @georgia this is why Health People call them “men who have sex with men (MSM)” in The Literature, because being gay is a lot closer to an ethnic identity one can opt into, whereas having sexual contact with men is a yes/no question based in physical reality. this is probably a tangent but whatever

edit: and the point is, having had sexual contact with men does not mean you consider yourself gay, “act” gay, or anything else

@georgia @kumicota years ago yes

@georgia @kumicota there are just a lot of reasons that combine together for why het sex in Africa is such a big vector compared to USA and Europe. I didn’t even say it can’t be spread through piv sex just that anal sex is way worse

@sun @kumicota would you care to explain

@clawfulneutral @kumicota @georgia yeah I get into this on here because people argue if you had sex with a man you’re gay, but it’s just a distinct social category from the gay community even if you think that

@sun @georgia I agree, tbh I should have elaborated it better. I was trying to say that those studies tend to focus on groups that carries the virus instead of the transmissibility which is kinda a problem.

Transmissibility wise they aren't that difference but one groups has way more people with it than the other, which makes a lot of people to think that only gay people has HIV which leads to people to do unprotected sex with unkown people

@kumicota @georgia transmissibility is worse

@georgia @kumicota I’ll dig it out later I’m in a grocery store parking lot

@kumicota @georgia but yes obviously if you think you’re safe from aids because you’re straight you’re an idiot

@sun @georgia I was trying to point that and I know the transmissiblity is worse but it's not in a few magnitudes higher

@sun @kumicota @georgia you can just pop a pill if you get aids and it's really unlikely to get it in the first place, even if you have unprotected sex with blood involved from a wound the odds are still low at like 1/3000 chance

@sun @kumicota @georgia yeah a friend mentioned that getting diseases with women is far lower than with men (as in, men-woman, man-man)

@sun @kumicota @georgia can the pool give us aids?

@clawfulneutral @georgia @sun good post

@kumicota @georgia @sun also, with how prevalent the bug chasing thing with gays seems to be...

@kumicota @georgia 17x higher

@kumicota @georgia I checked a little closer and rates of transmission between men having sex with men and men having anal sex with women (receptive partner) are close to identical.

@sun @georgia

Yeah, that helps me to explain what I wanted, 17x higher isn't a big difference as it may seen. That ignores the group distribution and assumes the worst case where one of the partners will always have HIV

@sun @georgia @kumicota then comes that observation that men are doing it /that/ much with men for it to remain endemic in that population

@hj @georgia

transphobia and homophobia are natural and normal reactions. accepting these two perversions of nature is what's not normal.

@hj @georgia

>low quality bait
bcuz faggot shit is that easily deboonked