@georgia i genuinely have lol. to focus on a diet angle, vegetarianism would be really easy once i move out. i like cook for myself and when i do my diet is really lentil-heavy. meat is an easy way to get a lot of calories admittedly but i have felt weird about eating it my entire life (and i actively need to have the flavor covered under spices most of the time bc i’m not big on the taste. especially chicken). beyond diet im already mostly pacifist (there may be rare circumstances when it is necessary to prevent like genocide or whatever but even in such situations the higher calling is still to find ways to carve pockets of life) and believe nurturing care should be directed towards our neighbors but also the whole of creation (st francis putting the worms on the roads back into the dirt is very dear to me)

but like, it gets so messy for me so fast bc ig when i focus on what is abstained from (which may be a skill issue on my end tbf), is it more compassionate to feed a pet snake rats or to allow it to starve? i would intuitively say it is more compassionate to feed the snake. it has been entrusted to your care, and to nurture it is holy.

but is this to drink of the nonsense of the world that “this is mine and that is yours?”

but on the other hand i dont think we should devolve into some animal-numbers utilitarianism bc that would lead to the end of the many beautiful ways God expresses Himself, including humanity
+ then what about the plants?
it feels like this cycle of consumption is inescapable. now, that changes if you take up a christian patristic perspective and only zero in on the level of fellowship humans may have with one another. the bulk of church fathers would say that while war (for example) is not permissible under any circumstances, consumption of meat is, bc we have no fellowship with them. but is *that* true? i mean maybe we dont have the same sort of fellowship but we certainly have some fellowship. the church fathers would not approve of wanton cruelty towards animals even if they would say eating meat is permissible. clearly we have *some* duty towards them even from that perspective, but it is extremely unclear to me what that is.

i think a lot about pylgia from ptn (lizzie moment) bc she approaches every situation with what seems to be the most compassionate action, be that hanging out with a scared fish in a fountain or feeding a young dolphin that cant hunt for itself (actually her therapist), but she is only able to do this bc she is part of a fiction.

i also have a strong belief that while their is a lower state it is greater to be in it. as Christ was the resurrection even into hell for the sake of liberation from sin, if hell claims anyone totally & eternally, it is better to count oneself among those it claims. (it really bugs me when people on here complain about ‘hylics’ tbh)

tl;dr i despair and give up before i can do anything

@lizzie not to burst your bubble but I heard a really unpleasant anecdote where a friend of st Francis cut the feet off a live pig that he didnt even care for to feed a sick man who craved fried pigs feet and st francis gave the man kind of a slap on the wrist for "damaging another's property", apparently. he doesnt go nearly as far as the Buddhists yogis and jains. but he went far for a christian definitely. I dont even kill mosquitoes but I'm prone to violence in speech and thought, so what am I? certainly much worse than st Francis.

@georgia that really doesn’t change how i feel about anything tbh. i dont think st francis was perfect. i focus on treasuring love where it exists rather than lifting up flawed humans as something other than what they are

@georgia still i too am often prone to violence in speech and thought. part of my recent decision to “joymaxx” (joke name for a serious thing) was as a decision to reduce that and tbf i think it actually has been helpful.

@lizzie oh I didnt intend to change your views I just thought you might be interested

@georgia oh fair yeah i was just “not to burst your bubble” threw me off

@lizzie honestly I spent like a minute trying to decide how to start the post and I was not happy with what I came up with

@georgia @lizzie
>dont even kill mosquitoes
this is what's known as a "bleeding heart"
or suicidal empathy for a more modern term

@meowski @georgia “suicidal empathy” um based?

@lizzie @georgia Jesus didn't commit suicide. what are you saying

@meowski @georgia if not killing a mosquito is suicidal, then surely allowing yourself to be taken by the romans for your execution is

@lizzie @meowski how does crucifixion even kill someone? I dont want to look it up lol

@georgia @meowski asphyxiation iirc

@lizzie @meowski I still dont get it

@lizzie @meowski @georgia what no dude they bleed out

@meso @meowski @georgia i was doingsome digging and saw more corroborating the idea that the position requires one to move to breathe but i cant say i found it particularly compelling

@lizzie @georgia fair point but it's just a euphamism for people who have excessive empathy to their own detriment

@meso @georgia @meowski yeah little more digging and it seems complex and like a whole bunch of things working together to kill you but bleeding out is what really makes it work

@meso @lizzie @meowski how do you bleed out from holes in your hands and feet? at least with asphyxiation maybe youre too fixed in place to breathe properly?? imagine if jesus died of something even more fucked up and torturous, like scaphism. imagine little kids being taught that happened to their savior. that would be really gross.

@meowski @georgia and im arguing that such a concept is contrary to the gospel. i think one might validly argue that it can be misdirected but i rarely see that argued except for evangelicals explaining why gay people dying is good.

@lizzie i gave up on this cause these giant fucking ants would keep stealing my cat's food and just find new ways to do it no matter where i put it 😭 they did not care for lime or anything like that.. once you have like a huge trail of them in your apartment, idk, i couldn't find a solution other than killing them. i feel bad for it though.

and my cat can't be vegetarian either. so i kinda figured i care more about her than any other animal.

@georgia @meowski @meso thats why the other factors have to kick (also why other punishments to create wounds might accompany it) what im seeing is that the weight pulls to make it harder to exhale so some blood loss + difficulty breathing + other exertion generally

@georgia @meowski @meso actually i think nobody really knows

@lizzie @georgia Jesus not resisting when the romans and jews crucified him is completely different than not swatting a mosquito that is sucking your blood and potentially giving you malaria. i think even jesus would have swatted a mosquito. not to mention people in the bible ate meat and fishes, so this isn't really a valid line of reasoning to extrapoate this to mosquitos

@lizzie i also always feel like fungi should be considered animals but like, you just can't, if you care about fungus too much you're gonna die, cause the fungus is not gonna extend the same compassion to you

@ww yeah i also kinda feel this way

@meowski @georgia i mean i literally opened the door for this by saying you could say it was misdirected. im just saying “too much empathy” alone is an anti-christian statement as far as i can tell

@lizzie @georgia it's probably dehydration mostly. people took days to die from crucifixion

@lizzie @georgia you can have too much empathy when it's misplaced. for example if a wolf is going to eat your children, do you not defend your children because you have empathy for the wolf? no, that's stupid

@lizzie @meowski @meso damn no one fucking knows how jesus died, is that what this represents lol? is didnt actually die a reference to the gnostic and Islamic heresy?

@meowski @georgia i dont see how this is a matter of too much empathy. is it less empathetic to act for the sake of the children?

@georgia @meowski @meso yeah im pretty sure lol

@lizzie @georgia because you a human are more important than a tiny parasite insect. accept your place in the food chain and deal with it

@meowski @georgia

read statement
dont like it
ignore it entirely and start arguing with something an entirely different person said

@lizzie @georgia i wasn't even talking to you. i was talking to the "entirely different person"

@meowski @georgia you literally did reply to me though like if you want to respond to georgia i feel like you should have a response post that actually responds to the post in question

especially since you responded to a post where i was addressing what youve been saying

@georgia @lizzie @meowski didnt actually die is a reference to how it's scientifically impossible for him to resurrect

@lizzie @georgia ok whatever i responded enough to you already. i don't like having discussions about discussions and you clearly like to play mind games. good bye i have some work to do

@meowski @georgia good luck! i hope your time is productive

@meso @lizzie @meowski LAME!!!

@meso @lizzie @meowski @georgia Jesus died because a Roman soldier came and speared him in the side. You're probably not gonna bleed out from a nail through your hands and feet

@feld @lizzie @meowski @meso I thought the spear in the side was to check to see if he was dead

@georgia @lizzie @meowski @meso it wouldn't have produced "blood and water" the way it was described. Stab something dead, not much happens because there's no blood pressure.

@feld @meowski @georgia @meso > doesnt know jesus was giving birth to the church 🙄

@lizzie @meowski @georgia @meso finally some biblical evidence that men can give birth

@feld @lizzie @meowski @georgia @meso there is medieval art of jesus giving birth through the stab in his side

@feld @lizzie @meowski @meso I just assumed the blood and water was miraculous. wouldnt it just produce blood if it werent?

@georgia @lizzie @meowski @feld @meso lung puncture was what I was told

@georgia @lizzie @meowski @meso depends, was Jesus sponsored by Liquid Death back then? We'll have to reach out to his agent

@sun @lizzie @meowski @feld @meso ive also heard his heart was punctured when his side was punctured?

@georgia @lizzie @meowski @meso @sun feels like everyone is just making shit up lol

@feld @lizzie @meowski @meso @sun isnt that most of christology

@sun @meowski @feld @georgia @meso this is what i was referencing yeah