Conversation
Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
so I mean this guy basically admits that you do have to redesign everything and you can't just flip a switch and that you do have to change the entire industry to accommodate the requirement, then treats it like some kind of epic own instead of realizing he's just a dumbass who admits his version of the proposal is insane
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mangeurdenuage 
🌿 
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@sun ROFL
"It's just more profitable, the money goes into dark shadow agencies in other countries instead of the company/investors but it's way better like this"
"It's just more profitable, the money goes into dark shadow agencies in other countries instead of the company/investors but it's way better like this"
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@sun Yes, the industry should change around this. The current state is not good.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Noraweed then admit it's a massive change that you're legally forcing instead of lying and saying compliance is trivial
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
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@sun Complience would be trivial if you built the game with the knowledge you need an end-of-life plan. It would not be required for existing games under the current petition proposal.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Noraweed you're basically saying ban service games, or at least most of them.
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@sun
>you do have to change the entire industry to accommodate the requirement
You mean the industry shouldn't make more money with commercial models that deprives people or basic natural rights ?
>you do have to change the entire industry to accommodate the requirement
You mean the industry shouldn't make more money with commercial models that deprives people or basic natural rights ?
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Looming @Noraweed you have to architect your game around preservation which may not match market realities. a lot of games could do this but it's an indirect way of banning entire classes of games currently in development that are insanely popular for the long-term benefit of a very small subset of your customers that care when the game turns off after x years.
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@sun
>trivial
Honestly a bad word to use here and I don't think the petition actually uses it.
Trivial or not. Telling someone to not build planned obsolescence into their product should be normal. My fucking dishwasher should not stop working in 5 years because someone turned a server off, and neither should games I have bought and paid for.
>trivial
Honestly a bad word to use here and I don't think the petition actually uses it.
Trivial or not. Telling someone to not build planned obsolescence into their product should be normal. My fucking dishwasher should not stop working in 5 years because someone turned a server off, and neither should games I have bought and paid for.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Noraweed they use "reasonable" which is just as dangerous because as I mentioned before you could argue that dumping a "works on my machine" server binary at end of life that takes significant community effort to get into a workable state could be perceived as not complying
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To Be Why
why@shitposter.world
@mer @Noraweed @sun they should make it be a contract
when you go to gamestop the employee should take out a massive scroll and point to 12 places you need to sign in order to complete the purchase
sorta like the form you have to fill out when you buy a gun that says you dont want to kill yourself
that should be on the games purchase contract too except you should have to declare that games are the only thing stopping you from ending it all
and buying games should take away your rights to own guns or take out loans for car, house, etc
please vote for me in the upcoming election i got a plan thatll solve it all
when you go to gamestop the employee should take out a massive scroll and point to 12 places you need to sign in order to complete the purchase
sorta like the form you have to fill out when you buy a gun that says you dont want to kill yourself
that should be on the games purchase contract too except you should have to declare that games are the only thing stopping you from ending it all
and buying games should take away your rights to own guns or take out loans for car, house, etc
please vote for me in the upcoming election i got a plan thatll solve it all
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@sun
No, did you read the documentation? Or engage at all with the material of the initiative? If a game is sold specifically, and only as, a service, then it's a service and people know time is only rented on it. If it's sold as a product, it's should be treated as a product.
No, did you read the documentation? Or engage at all with the material of the initiative? If a game is sold specifically, and only as, a service, then it's a service and people know time is only rented on it. If it's sold as a product, it's should be treated as a product.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Noraweed its easy to point out tons and tons and tons of people that clearly don't know what the initiative promises which is reason enough to not do it and plenty of people have disputed that this is easy to do
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Noraweed I am saying unless you make an extremely specific and limited proposal I am going to reject it on principle, and even the things it wants to do aren't actually so easy to do, the world has changed since the 1990s and its not as simple as just build a single binary and let people own it forever
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grillchen
grillchen@brotka.st
@sun @Noraweed @why side note:
some games need to be discovered by players. like hidden quests or hidden features. sometimes it takes the whole player base hours, sometimes years to solve those things.
prematurely releasing the server side code spoils this forever.
what about this: a game has to be actively used by the IP owner, otherwise it becomes public domain. shutting down servers means they dont use it anymore.
some games need to be discovered by players. like hidden quests or hidden features. sometimes it takes the whole player base hours, sometimes years to solve those things.
prematurely releasing the server side code spoils this forever.
what about this: a game has to be actively used by the IP owner, otherwise it becomes public domain. shutting down servers means they dont use it anymore.
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@sun I'll be back to argue about this later, I have to get back to work
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To Be Why
why@shitposter.world
@grillchen @Noraweed @sun what a silly thing to side note on. all of this has always been about end of life. your solution only makes things messier and wouldnt save games anyways
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@sun @why @Noraweed
>the government I guess largely exists because most people can't take care of themself
Isn't it just an historical group of people that just centralized efforts to manage large scale projects ? And what we have today is a accumulative legacy of that ?
It can of course boost development like we have seen with war taxes but those should have had a limit period of time by been written off when wars ended.
But that wasn't the case. Money flooded in and since there were no legal mechanism to stop it they just went on with it.
>the government I guess largely exists because most people can't take care of themself
Isn't it just an historical group of people that just centralized efforts to manage large scale projects ? And what we have today is a accumulative legacy of that ?
It can of course boost development like we have seen with war taxes but those should have had a limit period of time by been written off when wars ended.
But that wasn't the case. Money flooded in and since there were no legal mechanism to stop it they just went on with it.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@why @grillchen @Noraweed it would be great if every product was built with an end of life plan but I think we both know that you work inside of even a big company and the entire operation is still basically fly-by-night.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@why @Noraweed @grillchen only pirates actually preserve things not the companies so just optimize the law for letting pirates preserve your product for you
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不幸な mer ䷔
mer@yourwalls.todayconsumer law protects you from when the purchase happens
the EULA needs to be a requirement to the purchase, if the software doesn’t work if you refuse but you already paid that is fraud
you can’t always make EULA at the sale because EULAs want to keep updating instead of remaining the same
EULAs often claim clauses that are just not legal (ie claiming data RGPD or other local laws doesnt allow for collection) which is normal because not all sofware teams have a jurist on deck to update the EULA at each law update in all regions the software is available
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@sun @Noraweed
>you have to architect your game around preservation which may not match market realities.
I don't think I get what you mean. What part of putting in the End of Life plan prevents its from being ran exactly the same way as it would have without the End of Life plan?
I also don't think that we are talking about a small subset of customers but I wouldn't know where to pull data from on that lol
>you have to architect your game around preservation which may not match market realities.
I don't think I get what you mean. What part of putting in the End of Life plan prevents its from being ran exactly the same way as it would have without the End of Life plan?
I also don't think that we are talking about a small subset of customers but I wouldn't know where to pull data from on that lol
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@sun i don't care about the hoops the devs have to go through, it's doable, do it. A failed gacha is being repurposed as a standalone game so it can be done. I will rape the op
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@SuperDicq @Noraweed @Looming there is not a clear separation between code and content in systems that are online and content-heavy, the only reason it was done before was because it was the only way to distribute content
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@SuperDicq @Looming @Noraweed I love these arguments by the way because they just prove my point that compliance with people's expectations does change everything up to and including the expectation that copyright should be abolished. keep it up.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@SuperDicq @Noraweed @Looming I mean in an ideal world companies would escrow their game code and assets with like the Library of Congress and in 20 years their copyright would expire and the entire thing would be released
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@SuperDicq @Noraweed @Looming I was giving you my honest opinion, I am not even totally against really big changes I just don't think the vague and exploitable EU bill that will come out of this initiative is going to be the thing that does it
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@lebronjames75 @sun @Looming @Noraweed ms flight sim 2020 is multi terabytes and streams it all from a server
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like soume kinda, nebulrat
lebronjames75@shitposter.world
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@sun @grillchen @why
I am back and have decided to not continue arguing because of this post. If your position is that preservationists should just be forced into a legally dubious position where they can attacked, fined, and shut down at any time if the copyright holder gets aggressive, then we value fundamentally different things and I'm not going be able to convince you otherwise. There's no point.
I am back and have decided to not continue arguing because of this post. If your position is that preservationists should just be forced into a legally dubious position where they can attacked, fined, and shut down at any time if the copyright holder gets aggressive, then we value fundamentally different things and I'm not going be able to convince you otherwise. There's no point.
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@Noraweed @grillchen @why I literally said that I would support the position that companies just can't prevent you from independently keeping their game working after they abandon it. but overwhelmingly I see people online thinking that this is or will require sweeping changes, and I am extremely skeptical of the EU legislative process. we are talking past each other and agree there's no point in continuing.
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@sun @grillchen @why This is a very aggressive post. Let me try and not be such a mad cunt; I don't think there's any argument I can make here that would be both convincing to you and something I actually believe.
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@sun @Noraweed
>the world has changed since the 1990s and its not as simple as just build a single binary and let people own it forever
Can you please elaborate on this as the only major change that is a pain in the ass from my perspective is packet routing, which has become quite frustrating compared to when I began 20 years ago.
>the world has changed since the 1990s and its not as simple as just build a single binary and let people own it forever
Can you please elaborate on this as the only major change that is a pain in the ass from my perspective is packet routing, which has become quite frustrating compared to when I began 20 years ago.
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@mangeurdenuage @Noraweed I'm done talking about this, I detailed all my arguments already
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
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Q.U.I.N.N.
icedquinn@blob.cat
@sun i raised the issue that a lot of servers now are just outsourced too. if you built your game around nakama there isn't a server to even give out, it's all locked up in their cloud 
(nakama does have some crippled self hosting options, but many alternatives which do the same thing doesn't.)
(nakama does have some crippled self hosting options, but many alternatives which do the same thing doesn't.)
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
@icedquinn I also know for a fact that there are server software that provide the source to customers for customization, but you cannot distribute those changes
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Q.U.I.N.N.
icedquinn@blob.cat
@sun i guess there is some optimism that politicians will care about signatures and not totally just water it down to meaninglesness exactly as all the right to repair bills had happen 
not really against what they want, though i've read years of devs talk about why this isn't the norm already, and i'd be deeply surprised if this doesn't get immediately swiss cheesed like populist laws all do.
not really against what they want, though i've read years of devs talk about why this isn't the norm already, and i'd be deeply surprised if this doesn't get immediately swiss cheesed like populist laws all do.
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hazlin at rest
hazlin@shortstacksran.ch
@icedquinn @sun
It feels like people are saying "we wish the government was more involved in regulating video games"
It feels like people are saying "we wish the government was more involved in regulating video games"
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@SuperDicq @sun @Noraweed @Looming Anything that has a trademark licensing, art, story, brand etc...
Code has it's own licensing system.*
You can compared that to board games and we come back to the maths of game theory.
No user gives a shit about how it's manufactured they just want to see the story/gameplay/art. And it doesn't affect the people negatively to have trademarks on these as if people want to make their own version or changes rules no human or no human made tool has the omnipotence/omnipresence to stop you from doing so.
Meanwhile in computing omnipotence/omnipresence can be emulated thanks to a combination of black box automation via the internet and DRM.
Code has it's own licensing system.*
You can compared that to board games and we come back to the maths of game theory.
No user gives a shit about how it's manufactured they just want to see the story/gameplay/art. And it doesn't affect the people negatively to have trademarks on these as if people want to make their own version or changes rules no human or no human made tool has the omnipotence/omnipresence to stop you from doing so.
Meanwhile in computing omnipotence/omnipresence can be emulated thanks to a combination of black box automation via the internet and DRM.
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@sun @Looming @Noraweed @SuperDicq
>that copyright should be abolished.
Pretty much, we need to go back pre bern convention and maybe even further.
>that copyright should be abolished.
Pretty much, we need to go back pre bern convention and maybe even further.
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
@why @lebronjames75 @Looming @Noraweed @sun "Peak users for MSFS2020 are 61,775 (August 2020) and drop to 15,051 in September 2020. In July 2021, there is a peak of 19,580, and then it drops again. By November 2024, it was declining, and after the release of MSFS2024, it continues to decline."
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mangeurdenuage 🌿
mangeurdenuage@shitposter.world
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