i have never seen the tyranny of the majority demonstrated so well

@7666
how's it demonstrating it? the people voting blue are giving the reds what they want anyway 🤔

@mirq anyone who doesn't push red is an idiot and deserves their fate

@7666 @mirq I'd push blue too, choice theorists would say everyone should go red but I think we should let people make irrational choices

@7666 I unironically think the world would be comfier if everyone who pressed red died
I also think that society as we know it would then collapse but I don't view that as a bad outcome

@mirq comfier living in ignorance? there is literally no downside to red except filtering "aww i'm doing the right thing!" morons who can't into math

@7666
One leads to everyone surviving
The other puts blood of millions on your hands
Easy choice

@mirq everyone would survive if they pushed red. there is no downside at all to red. don't be retarded

@mirq @7666 yeah, red

@7666 everybody would survive if they all pressed blue, there is no downside to blue
How can you call me retarded if your own argument applies perfectly well to both choices, retard?

@mirq if you would please consult the chart

@7666 @mirq "erm, if you don't the theoretical game theory framework for this scenario you are a GOY. no you CAN'T save all of humanity, you CAN'T MAKE SELFLESS CHOICES"

@7666 @mirq it’s the wording of the question, sure logically is red is the right, but you are still a murderous monster

@7666 honey, new trolley problem and included discussions just dropped

i press both

@7666@comp.lain.la this mainly just shows why using game they to predict the behavior of human systems is schizophrenic

@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @7666@comp.lain.la @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org pushing blue is actually the rational choice because living in a world of red button pushers world be utterly insufferable

@anemone @7666 @mirq oh this is a good point. its one thing to be selfish, but why would you want to live with other people who are selfish?

@georgia @anemone @mirq putting myself in a position to potentially be killed by other people is not my idea of a good time and shouldn't be anyone else's.

@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @7666@comp.lain.la @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org I’m being facetious, but imagine living in a society where everyone is a libertarian who posts on less wrong

@7666@comp.lain.la @georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org technically you do that every time you leave the house

@anemone @7666 @georgia @mirq aren't all lesswrong "effective altruists" they're ok with state power I think.

@7666@comp.lain.la @georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org the real question is whether you want to risk being killed or risk being responsible for killing billions of people. Different people will have different answers to that

@anemone @7666 @mirq I dont care that much about being killed as a believer in reincarnation but I do care about the bad karma of choosing red

@georgia @anemone @mirq it is wild that there is a clear path to not being killed in every scenario and yet the blood is on the hands of the people taking that path.

@sun@shitposter.world @7666@comp.lain.la @georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org I am just saying it’s valid to prefer death to living in a world where everyone is some version of the FTX polycule

@7666 @anemone @mirq well luckily for me most people are more compassionate than choice theorists

@georgia @7666 @mirq i dont think choice theorists can tell you the right answer tbh. they can tell you the right answer given the appropriate reward matrices.

@georgia @anemone @mirq i think you are so up your own ass that any sort of logical scenario that doesn't subscribe to some bleeding heart religious dogma is incomprehensible. a hundred years ago you'd probably make decisions by dowsing rod.

@anemone @7666 @georgia @mirq fair

@7666@comp.lain.la @georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org extremely ironic post

@7666 (this is a edited image red won)

@dcc did it?

@7666 Yes

@anemone@ebiverse.social @georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org Let the girl have her religious psychosis phase.

@georgia @7666 @anemone @mirq i wonder how true this is

@georgia @7666 @anemone @mirq i wonder how many didnt get the question in OP but clicked blue anyway

@apollo you're putting yourself above others and you don't even have basic reading comprehension
Fucking sick of faggota like you shitting up twkn
Here's a recap:
I said society would collapse if everyone who pressed red died
You said everyone who pressed red da smartest
I agreed with you
You disagreed with me

Do you see how you're retarded or are you actully SO retarded that you still can't after such a simple explanation

@7666 @anemone @georgia @mirq I'd press red because I don't wanna die, and the deaths of people that I most likely don't know doesn't matter to me. I reckon my friends and family (that I care about) would press red anyway, my mom especially lmfao.

@mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @7666@comp.lain.la @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org is true. If it wasn’t I don’t think civilization would exist

@7666 @anemone @mirq wanting more people to live isnt bleeding heart religious dogma, I'd genuinely feel guilty if I chose red and many people died because of it. feeling that kind of guilt for billions of deaths is worse than death for me. your remark is dripping with antipathy towards me though (cmon, a dousing rod?), and I'm not sure what the source of that antipathy is. I just think that not only smart self-interested people should live.

It's not so much about selfishness as much as it is about literacy. The objectively correct choice is to press red. With how this question is presented, there is absolutely no reason to press blue, other than thinking "well some people might press blue without reading the question so we should all press blue just in case". Putting yourself in what could potentially be a life threatening scenario to save a theoretical person who may or may not exist isn't healthy. I've seen a variant of this question that is, imo, much better - it labels the switches "good" and "evil" instead of "blue" and "red". It's a lot easier to rationalize that a lot of people will feel pressured to press the "good" button purely because it's labeled good imo, and helps show how much the way something is presented alters our actions based on our internalized biases. Simply presenting something as "the good choice" will push people to pick it without thinking beyond that. Like in a video game where you get good boy points for doing something morally awful just because the game's devs thought it was a good thing, so everyone just does the good boy points option and then complains online that they feel bad about being forced to do bad things to get the biggest good boy point number possible.

@georgia @7666 @mirq choice theorists have no morals so who gives a fuck what they think anyway

@7666 @mirq “wow if you focus entirely on the most selfish framing of this, the answer is clearly the selfish option”

@georgia @7666 @mirq maybe "I think everyone should get to live" is a perfectly rational thing to prioritize actually. maybe "rational" doesn't mean "selfish to the exclusion of all else". maybe modern "rationalists" are hacks who think their own subjective preferences are "objectively correct" and "rational" yet /still/ can't meaningfully cross the fact-value gap. oops!!

can't stand this tpot crap

@Alex

well some people might press blue without reading the question so we should all press blue just in case

disingenuous and you know it

@7666 @georgia @mirq maybe "living while a bunch of other people die" isn't a win condition for everyone, any of these "rationalists" ever consider that? no?

Yeah. There are also infants pressing buttons at random, children who can't read pressing buttons at random, those who aren't mentally sound or who are incapable of making a rational choice pressing buttons at random, people pressing blue because it's their favorite color, people who don't understand the question, etc. When you present it as "everyone in the whole world" there are going to be a lot of people making decisions without rationally thinking about it.

@patchuun @7666 @mirq to me its literally just a question of, would you live knowing that many others would be more likely to die because you chose to live? or would you risk death for others? it doesnt matter if those others are irrational or not to me.

now it just says "would die", which I assumed would be instant and painless. if it said "would be tortured horribly" I would pick red, I'm incredibly pain-averse.

@georgia @7666 @mirq I'd still pick blue but I would volunteer to be the omelas child so I admittedly am an outlier

@georgia @7666 @anemone @mirq yeah I had to look up what this thing was but I would push blue. Worst case scenario I die, but at least I wouldn't be killing anyone else.

@georgia@netzsphaere.xyz @7666@comp.lain.la @patchuun@social.xenofem.me @mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org I think you need to read Schopenhauer.

On further thought I think I am approaching this from an irrational viewpoint and I am allowing past trauma to push me towards self preservation at any cost.

@patchuun @7666 @mirq I read that short story as a kid, youre talking about the utopian city right?

@7666 @dcc no, blue won 58/42

@sneeden @7666 Oh i guess i didn't look at it lol.

@georgia @7666 @mirq "utopian" is a strong word, it's a "utopia" with a dark secret that the society's prosperity and happiness somehow entirely hinges on the unrelenting torture of a child. it's an obvious allegory for colonialism and imperial plunder and in that sense I think it's a great story. but as an autist I also can't help but interface with things on a literal level, and on the literal level my takeaway isn't "the ones who refuse to partake in opulence if it's at the expense of an individual's extreme suffering are the best of us", it's "god, I wish I could guarantee everyone alive at the same time as me has a perfect life where they need and want for nothing just with the relatively minor price of my own individual suffering"

@patchuun @7666 @mirq even when I was a kid I decided I would much rather live in a society where some are miserable (that I didnt know already tortures some children) while everyone else is fairly okay than a society where one child is tortured for me to be very happy. you are a much better person than me though gosh.

@sneeden @7666 Don't drive and look at fedi lol

@pernia @7666 @mirq I chose red because I want to live and I'd rather live in a world of reds because I'd trust they're rationalists

@Merc @7666 @mirq i feel it boils down to feeling bad for blues. cuz like, if everyone chose red, it'd be as if 50%+ chose blue. the poor blue bastards, filtered out by the arbitrary hypothetical scenario 7666 placed upon humanity from his evil death star.

@pernia @7666 @mirq if I had kids I'd probably pick blue. Until they're like 5 and have a working brain, I guess. Idk if you start to consider humans who are currently incapable of thinking but will be in the future, then it becomes a lot easier to go for blue.

@Merc @7666 @mirq yea. like, imagine ur gonna hold a national referendum to pick red or blue. it hasn't happened yet, but you know your gramma or parents are gonna choose blue bc they're midwits. they can't be helped, but you love them too much. if you bet against them, it'll be on your conscience forever. its cowardly, in a way.

imagine if ants did this. if you told them they could either lose a part of their colony or save themselves. they're already selfless biologically they wouldn't even be able to pick red. though if they could consider other colonies choices, maybe they'd pick red, because they're saved either way, but if they win they have an advantage over everybody else.

termites might pick red, cuz they can all reproduce and start their own colonies. they have civil wars over reproductive right, so it could even be a political move. but it would be very costly, cuz they need way more units to defend against ants.

@anemone @Alex why the hell else would you be pressing blue?

@Merc @7666 @mirq red is the stronger choice if you can organize it

@Merc @7666 @pernia @mirq why wouldnt you tell your kids to pick red?

@gav@cawfee.club @Alex@boymilk.cafe it's not "some people might press blue" a lot of people would definitely press blue

@gav @7666 @pernia @mirq I would, but if they're like a day old they won't understand.

@anemone @7666 @georgia @mirq technically it's your choice to live in martin luther king jr. blvd

@7666 @georgia @mirq @patchuun it’s giving ayn rand (the type of person patchuun is talking about)