openclaw is so weird. like. you have to already be neck-deep in the silicon valley ecosystem and take a lot of things for granted for it to even be useful.

don't have systemd? it's not prepared for that eventuality.
want to use IRC as an interface? good fucking luck.
want to use ollama as a backend? oh we're going to fail back to whatever API costs money for completely inexplicable reasons
what do you mean you don't have gh, clawhub, weebo, porkle, flipflap, and zsh installed? Are you a fucking troglodyte?
why isn't your e-mail server gmail? openclaw has panic attacks when it has to talk to something that isn't gmail
ask it for help with itself? I'm sorry dave I'm a dumbfuck.

@vii actually why do you not have ZSH installed?

@RustyCrab you can take my bash from my cold dead hands, or when I finally make the full jump to plan9 whichever comes first

@vii

@vii zshrimp

@vii

Okay, robot, check my email.
It's on Poob. Log into Poob right now. You can Poob it. Dive into Poob.
...

@vii I run it in a container, I don't trust that shit on my system no matter how many layers of approval and sandboxing it claims to have. Its functional, and can be marginally useful, but I'm getting pretty fed up how constantly broken it is.

@mr64bit I ran into the brokenness right out the gate and just said fuck it, I'll make my own orchestrator with blackjack, and hookers.

@RustyCrab @vii OCTUPLE GOY

@syzygy @vii NIGGA ITS A SHELL

@RustyCrab @vii

> actually why do you not have ZSH installed?

I've never installed zsh on purpose. It's worse fluoride than goddamn bash. You'd think these fuckin' things would be trained on some Bourne-alike, yeah, you expect it, but if it can't function with whatever plain /bin/sh exists on the machine, it's designed by idiots. readline and shitty multi-color prompts are not features a machine needs; most bashisms are not features required for programming.

Most of the LLMs have succeeded in creating the median Redditor, something no one wanted, but like the median Redditor, it's also crippled without its Macookro.
reddit_is_fucking_terrible_at_programming.png

@syzygy @vii PERHAPS I SHOULD ADD SOME INCEST TO YOUR TERMINAL TO MAKE IT MORE APPEALING

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii
Stole mpv's whole flow 😔

@RustyCrab @vii What the fuck is wrong with sh

@syzygy @vii its fine zsh is just better

@p @RustyCrab @vii fish is better anyway

@RustyCrab @vii literally how

@syzygy @vii better autocomplete makes things smoother nigga what kind of brain worms do you have to spaz out about a shell

@mischievoustomato @vii @p ive never used fish but i WILL JUST TO PISS OFF SYGZY

@RustyCrab @vii @p a friend told me about fish, and its nice to use and learn. I don't like posix syntax, and if I ever need pozzix, #!/usr/bin/env bash in a script will most likely suffice, or i can just call bash temporarily like the cheap whore it is.

@RustyCrab @vii @p @mischievoustomato GOY! GOY! GOY!

@syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato IM INSTALLING FISH ON YOUR COMPUTER WHILE YOURE NOT LOOKING BETTER SLEEP WITH ONE EYE OPEN

@RustyCrab @vii @p @mischievoustomato it's sigh zuy guy get it right

@RustyCrab @vii i don't have zsh installed

@kirby @vii @p @mischievoustomato GYPZY

@p BUT FUCKING LITERALLY.

> You need to configure Telegram for that.
> But why? This isn't a telegram feature. This has nothing to do with Telegram.
> You're right to call that out.

@vii

> You're right to call that out.

This shit makes me want to choke every RLHF dipshit in San Francisco.

@kirby @RustyCrab @vii @p i just read his name as "sissy gee". Fitting, in my opinion.

@mischievoustomato @RustyCrab @vii @p that's how i read it too i was just fucking with the crab

@RustyCrab @vii @p @mischievoustomato FISH AIN'T EVEN IN THE PACKAGE MANAGER JIT

@syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato PACKAGES ARE THE LEAST OF YOUR CONCERNS IM IN ROUTE RIGHT NOW YOU'RE WAKING UP WITH A SYSTEM FULL OF FLATPACKS

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p flatpaks? you lost me there. You'll have to be boiled.

@p @RustyCrab @vii Zshell is just graphical preference, I use it in some of my containers where I do graphical things but rest is as native bashrc.
ZSH good for some extensions as fuzzy 10K power level as you said the colors and Bat (stupid) etc.. I don't use most extensions but it's just like do you prefer Gnome or KDE thing for me frankly.
But as base all remain Ptyxis bash 3.5 as base
People could argue about nano or Vim also.

@zer0unplanned @vii @RustyCrab

> it's just like do you prefer Gnome or KDE thing for me frankly.

Likewise except with way more derision.

@mischievoustomato @RustyCrab @vii

@RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @vii Do you think surk will get pissed off at you for punching yourself in the dick or do you just end up with a sore dick and surk expresses incredulity?

@syzygy @RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @vii

KSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSH
That's what my /dev/random sound like.

@RustyCrab @syzygy @mischievoustomato @vii does motherfuckers not know how to `./configure && make && sudo make install` any more

autohell killed the ease of tarball installing...

@EdBoatConnoisseur @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato It's worse now, you gotta cmake ninja wheel.

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @EdBoatConnoisseur @mischievoustomato see? make ninja wheel

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato i wanted to give fish another try some time ago because it bears a certain (morbid) fascination for me.

> fish's core code has been ported from C++ to Rust

.. that's TOO morbid :)

@bonifartius @p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii rust's cool

@bonifartius @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato When it was first created, it was written in Perl.

@mischievoustomato @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p rust gives you crabs

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato it's not my language of choice but i respect perl people. they usually just do their hacking and don't bother anyone, contrary to the rust evangelism strike force :)

@bonifartius @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato

> they usually just do their hacking and don't bother anyone, contrary to the rust evangelism strike force :)

"Why I Hate Advocacy" is an excellent read and it came from the Perl people: https://www.perl.com/pub/2000/12/advocacy.html/

Unfortunately for the Rust Evangelism Strike Force, the discussion of NIH and mindless advocacy was not invented by Rust and was thus completely ignored; apart from that, it was written in 2000 and, although human nature hasn't changed, everything older than the most recent push to cargo is too old to consider.

@bonifartius @p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato

#JAPH

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @bonifartius @mischievoustomato mjd was a good dude. probably still is, but he was too. Heavens, I used to pore over the perl blogs.

@vii @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy Lotta good shit in there. I think the advocacy piece is, like, something that should have been passed around every couple of years and people slapped in the face for disregarding it, etc.

@p @bonifartius @RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii
Example1-4088000196.png

@ins0mniak @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @bonifartius @mischievoustomato Cromulent ragebait, well done, it's got it all and the longer I look the worse it gets, bravissimo I say.

@ins0mniak @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii

@p

Advocacy is the biggest problem in computing. Once they force whatever it is into all the mainline things the mainline things are not much better than the closed alternative because by then the option to go without it is taken away from any but the most devoted resistance.

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato

@Leyonhjelm @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii The only reasonable strategy, I think, is to just ignore the mainstream of whatever and try to isolate reasonable things.

@idiot @ins0mniak @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii When you find out that the "modern" one is just a wrapper around nmap, the joke comes full-circle.

@p

I agree. I’ve always just been surrounded by retards who think I can help them with normie shit. Which I can’t without murdering them.

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii yes please

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato
that was a nice read!

> The best glues can stick to everything.

hehe

> They want other people to join the Tribe. If they meet someone who doesn’t like Perl, it’s an insult to the Tribe and a personal affront to them.

i don't even have any good argument against rust itself as i didn't even really look at it in the first place. sole reason for this is that from the get-go the rust people were insufferable, just like poettering.

Perhaps one of the worst things about advocacy is it leads to really bad software. Remembering back to the Java haydays, j<everything> was generally worse than the code it replaced, likely because its objective was to replace something, not to make great software. I'm seeing that happening with rust-<everything> now.

Not that I don't use Rust myself, but "X but written in Y" software has a bad tendency to be slop.

@bonifartius @p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato that goes both ways, there are also some really retarded anti-rust cultists, as you can see if you go into lunduke's comments, where you see nocoders who think it's some conspiracy because the institutions that for decades have sponsored formally validated software without garbage collection are sponsoring rust, or that the compiler that can be bootstrapped from source in two different ways has a trusting trust injection, and such bullshit

@protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato i think whatever the language brings in positive aspects (not all that much imo) is more than negated by the cultist community.

i'm not up to date, does rust have a spec now or is it still just the one implementation? is bootstrapping done from C or does one need to download binaries?

@bonifartius @protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p you dont have to deal with the community

@mischievoustomato @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @protos at this point that's a bit like "you don't have to deal with the spanish inquisition"

@bonifartius @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @protos well i dont deal with the community so idrc

@bonifartius @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato it's not just about what it brings, but what it doesn't (40 years of bloat as in C++).
it does not have a spec, but I don't see why it should have one either
bootstrapping is done from ocaml or C++

@bonifartius @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato

> i don't even have any good argument against rust itself

LLVM is enough for me. But the thing is it has nothing really to recommend it: it's just a kinda shitty hybrid of the worst parts of C++ and JavaScript, the two languages Mozilla loves.
i_do_not_care_for_rust.png

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @ins0mniak @idiot @mischievoustomato but how can it be memory safe then? :)

@cjd @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato i remember this because when i was young i always tried to set up these java things which supposedly were the best thing ever, only to fail because something java happened.

maybe the worst damage of this advocacy thing is that people coming into computer stuff think the one-best-solution is the norm and good. took me years to undo that damage tbh.

@protos @bonifartius @RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii

> there are also some really retarded anti-rust cultists

Unhinged people sometimes have a smaller, unhinged backlash. There is no widespread problem with anti-Rust people showing up to bother people that are writing in Rust.
rust_bot_astroturfing.png

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato

Tangent...
I attended a Perl conference around the time that post was made where MJD was a speaker and he gave us a choice of a few talks he could give. I don't remember what the other choices were but pretty much everyone decided they wanted to hear his talk on Lambda Calculus. So he talked about that, and like maybe 10% of the talk was Perl specific with him providing implementation examples using Perl since that's what the attendees were most familiar with. But it really had more to do with conceptual stuff like, how do you implement an `if` statement when there's not already an `if` statement, etc, and building a language grammar from the ground up. I don't remember all the details, but it really opened my eyes towards FOD.

@toiletpaper @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii Oh, yeah, you know, I learned that stuff from Unlambda, hilariously: http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ .

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @ins0mniak @bonifartius @mischievoustomato

@bonifartius @p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @idiot @mischievoustomato

this might be of interest to you.


https://hemaks.org/posts/the-rust-safety-myth-memory-leaks-in-supposedly-safe-code/

@ins0mniak

Rust is homosexual and causes anal leakage

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @bonifartius @idiot @mischievoustomato

@Leyonhjelm @RustyCrab @bonifartius @idiot @mischievoustomato @p @syzygy @vii acccurate.

also fucking annoying having to listen to people around here never shut the fuck up about it lol

@ins0mniak

Anyone who is in programming and is considering doing Rust should instead go back to college and get a bachelor’s degree in the arts. There is literally less chance of being a gay communist and getting the AIDS from that than from any exposure to Rust.

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @bonifartius @idiot @mischievoustomato

@Leyonhjelm @RustyCrab @bonifartius @idiot @mischievoustomato @p @syzygy @vii plus with AI writing code for everyone there's going to be an epic shitstorm of security issues and crashes that actual programmers are going to have to go back and fix.

@zer0unplanned

Your argument here means unfathomably little to me.

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @ins0mniak @p @bonifartius @idiot @mischievoustomato

I deleted it before your response as I was confused with another thread.

@zer0unplanned

That makes more sense than it being a response to what I said

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @ins0mniak @p @bonifartius @idiot @mischievoustomato

@bonifartius @mischievoustomato @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p what happens if you just write rust code without being in their discord?

@protos @bonifartius @RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii Jithub is their Discord. 4chan is their Discord. The entire interwebs is the Rustposter's Discord. No one is safe. People have done that to me on *fedi*.

@protos @bonifartius @RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii

> it's not just about what it brings, but what it doesn't

Put on the stripey socks and shut the fuck up.

@protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato no spec means the whole language is undefined which is pretty funny for something which markets as total safety, imo

@bonifartius @protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @mischievoustomato

> no spec means the whole language is undefined

I see no problem with this, actually.

Why would you want something that's got rust? Seems like horrible marketing.

@bonifartius @cjd @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato

I hate java for this reason.

There was one p2p software written in python or Delphi or C(++) and one idiocracy moment in JAVA

The java shit always produced a OOM. >:

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @bonifartius @toiletpaper @mischievoustomato

```s``sii`ki
``s``s`ks
``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr
``s`k`si``s`k`s`k
`d````````````.H.e.l.l.o.,. .w.o.r.l.d.!
k
k
`k``s``s`ksk`k.*


me when calling a cat named hello world

@vii @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @toiletpaper You look at Unlambda and Brainfuck and it proves the Horseshoe Theory for language design.

@Humpleupagus @protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato THREE BILLION DEVICES RUN RUST

@p

The only thing Rust makes me want to move is my bowels

@RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @protos

@p @RustyCrab @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato >compile rust project
>installs 56,274 crates
>32 threads spawn
>CPU's are running at 120% usage
>compiler getting dangerously close to being killed for eating 60 GB of memory in 1.2 ms
>19 hours pass
>done

@syzygy @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @vii "Hey, my 'Hello, World!' is memory-safe now!"

@p @RustyCrab @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato Blazing Fast 🚀 Memory Safe 🚀

@syzygy @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @vii "I minify my nodejs codebases."

@syzygy @p @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato

> blazing fast

I tend to move slower when I'm blazing up.

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato ngl this push towards tranny code is also making me less trustworthy of linux nowadays, Arch in particular. The Germans and I guess the upper hierarches of Arch Linux decided that completely rewriting ALPM in Rust was a good idea. I guess they don't think ALPM contributers are competent at C so instead of learning the language properly they opt to completely convert to Rust... For handholding?

And of course the usual alphabet weirdos governing Rust development are about as sane as you'd expect. It's only a matter of time when petty infighting happens that fractures the whole project and then people will just go back to C again because they cannot trust the community to be run by competent people.

@ehhh @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii

> less trustworthy of linux nowadays

Well, like, I think Linux has been borderline intolerable for a decade at least. I started treating Linux like Windows in the late 90s, you know, "Here's this thing I have to run for work shit but I hate touching it." But as soon as they forced their CoC down Linus's throat, I figured it was over.

> The Germans and I guess the upper hierarches of Arch Linux decided that completely rewriting ALPM in Rust was a good idea.

Ew.

There's always https://crux.nu/ if you want the thing that Arch forked off from. CRUX has stayed good so far.

> they opt to completely convert to Rust... For handholding?

Well, like, I never had a good time with pacman personally. I switched from Arch back to Slackware for shit I don't care about.

> It's only a matter of time when petty infighting happens that fractures the whole project and then people will just go back to C again because they cannot trust the community to be run by competent people.

Python fell apart completely when it lost its competent management and it is now less stable than *Ruby*. This didn't actually stop people from using it, though.

@ehhh @RustyCrab @syzygy @p @bonifartius @mischievoustomato I had a reaction of disgust when recently switching back to gentoo and discovering a new detail in the handbook; RUSTFLAGS is now an optional part of make.conf.

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @ehhh

> Python fell apart completely when it lost its competent management and it is now less stable than *Ruby*. This didn't actually stop people from using it, though.

I still long for the parallel universe where julia wasn't written with llvm and was the lingua franca for ML.

@vii @RustyCrab @bonifartius @ehhh @mischievoustomato @syzygy I felt that way about Pure. It would be a workable ML-alike (the other ML) if it wasn't LLVM. Very usable language.

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @ehhh I can see why you like it; it kinda reads like an easier-to-write forth. XD

@vii @RustyCrab @bonifartius @ehhh @mischievoustomato @syzygy It is one of the few languages where the first program I wrote was useful; was checking the Spamhaus PBL for IPs that were blocked, and thankfully nobody uses Spamhaus any more. (Postscript was another; Postscript had the added bonus of actually being useful for a real-world task for a person that was not me.) Much more enjoyable than Haskell, anyway, and more convenient than OCaml, much more legible than Erlang. The extremely low-friction C function calls made it really easy to deal with.

using system;
extern hostent *gethostbyname(char *name);
pblize addr = (join "." (reverse (split "." addr))) + ".zen.spamhaus.org";
check domain::string = gethostbyname (pblize domain) ~= NULL;
pcheck addr::string =
if check addr then ((puts(addr + " is blocked!")) $$ 1)
else ((puts(addr + " is fine.")) $$ 0);
count_pbld args = foldr (+) 0 $ map pcheck $ tail args;
main = exit $ count_pbld $ tail argv;
if compiling then () else main;

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato is this your spambot? the immediate context should be sufficient to know that "discord" was not the important part but rather "if you just write rust code" without caring about any community.
if I write some rust code and then some faggot comes to my github complaining about how my code fails the clippy lints or I used unsafe flippantly, I don't see that as a reason to drop the language.

@protos @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii

> is this your spambot?

Do you read context? The remark was that the community is irritating and they jump out of the bushes to ask if you'd like to buy a vegan timeshare. So jumping in to say "But what if you write Rust code *anyway*?" is unrelated as well as exactly the complaint.

> but rather "if you just write rust code" without caring about any community.

If I *don't* write Rust code, I still can't get away from their "community" .

Touching Rust on purpose is orthogonal to the process.

> Please buy our rusted devices.

Most of my devices I inherited from my great-grandpa have at least a little rust on them. Not bad for 70+ years but there.

@ehhh @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato if you ask me, arch went to shit in 2011 or so when project lead changed. was cool before, because it was simple and then someone decided that systemd is a good idea.

.. maybe i should thank them, this made me go to slackware again :)

@vii @RustyCrab You won't downgrade to that inferior OS, so you'll be safe with the best shell.

@protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato big question is why would i use rust ❓starts with the ecosystem where you have a centralized package registry. you aren't politically correct enough? did something "wrong"? package name gets taken away by glowies, cf. left-pad fuckup.

go did take long to get their packaging stuff, there was some mild drama, but it resulted in getting things right 90%.

hell i'd rather use a language with NO official package management instead of a registry.

@protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato registries worked for the perl and tex hippies because they were sane people interested in hacking.

"modern" devs are political first, hacking second and you can't escape this in the walled gardens they build. only way is to jump over the wall, and roam the wilderness, as well as one can.

@bonifartius @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato you can import crates from urls to git repos, no registry required.

@protos @bonifartius @RustyCrab @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii The big problem with "crates" is not the finer points of where they are hosted.

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @bonifartius @mischievoustomato are you illiterate? the context was "I don't want to use rust *because the community is bad*". the obvious response being "you are a dumb goy if other people can vicariously prevent you from enjoying something".

I get that the anti-rust cult needs to contrive any reason to hate rust, but this just isn't it.
especially when the reverse goes for C, I remember getting a rust hellthread from saying "LLVM is good because it allowed rust to exist in a way GCC couldn't have".

@protos @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @syzygy @vii

> are you illiterate? the context was

The context when you showed up was "Rust shitheads keep trying to push Rust" and you showed up to push Rust.

> NO *YOU* ARE A CULT

@protos @RustyCrab @syzygy @vii @p @mischievoustomato not arguing that i'm dumb, or a goy

@p @RustyCrab @syzygy @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @protos

p, how do you know you don't like heroin if you don't inject the heroin? You can't just look at the people nodding off around you, you have to take the heroin to have a valid opinion about heroin. Just shoot up heroin without caring about any heroin community.

@vii @RustyCrab @bonifartius @mischievoustomato @protos @syzygy

> Just shoot up heroin without caring about any heroin community.

sev i am doubled over

@nimt @RustyCrab @vii POSIX shells on POSIX. Plan 9 shell on Plan 9. (There's also ape/psh if you need POSIX.) But the point is that whatever annoys people about POSIX annoys *people*. Machines are immune to annoyance.

@nimt @RustyCrab @vii `cp rootkit.exe /n/buildrom/autorun.exe && cp rootkit.exe /n/buildrom/install.exe && disk/mk9660 -j -s /n/buildrom/ -p /sys/lib/sysconfig/proto/allproto doomcrack.iso`

@khayyam @nimt @RustyCrab @vii

Wayland
Ubuntu's default DE
ratpoison because fuck mice
ratpoison because it makes it easy to use drawterm full-screen.